BPD, NPD and self deception?

[GreenGully]

Hi all,

I was just wondering what experience people have of dealing with a person who has a personality disorder or would like to hear from people who may have this type of mental health condition themselves.

There is a particular person I know who employs slander tactics and acts like the victim, rather than taking ownership of the consequences of their own actions. This person has been caught out telling blatant lies more than once.

I am trying to be sympathetic to the fact this is most likely a form of self deception:

Self-deception is the act of lying to oneself, often to avoid facing uncomfortable truths or to maintain a more favourable self-image.
Definition and Overview
Self-deception, also known as self-delusion, involves denying or rationalizing away evidence that contradicts one's beliefs or perceptions. It is a psychological process where individuals convince themselves of a truth (or lack of truth) to avoid acknowledging uncomfortable realities. This can manifest in various ways, such as minimizing problems, blaming others, or rationalizing poor decisions.

Psychological Mechanisms
Self-deception can be both conscious and unconscious. It often serves as a defense mechanism, protecting individuals from anxiety, stress, or feelings of inadequacy. By deceiving themselves, people can maintain a sense of control and resilience in the face of challenges. However, this can lead to negative consequences, such as impaired decision-making and hindered personal growth, as individuals may fail to confront their true feelings or situations.

I suppose my question is, does a person who self deceives genuinely believe in their version of events or do they possess enough self awareness to recognise they are lying but choose to do so anyway?

Thanks.

Are you talking about someone who has been diagnosed with two serious personality disorders? Why are you trying to analyse them?

Both disorders produce very difficult behaviour and it's best to stay away. You won't change them and people with NPD are particularly averse to getting help.

I am talking about someone who has been diagnosed with BPD but also shows narcissistic traits. I do understand some of the symptoms/behaviours of both conditions can be similar whilst being two different disorders.

It's more curiosity than analysis, maybe a bit of both. I'm trying to understand why this person regularly lies about things that are easily proven to be untrue. There does always seem to be an element of rewriting history and changing the version of events in order to appear favourable or 'play the victim' to gain sympathy or attention whilst painting others who they perceive have wronged them in a bad light. The way of thinking is very black & white.

I would like to give this person the benefit of the doubt and assume they genuinely believe in their tales and therefore should be pitied because they are suffering with historical and ongoing delusions. Another interesting element is when someone has rehearsed their story and retold it so many times they actually 'remember' their version and become convinced that is how things happened. I will say some of the lies lean towards pathological.
Pathological Liar vs Compulsive Liar: What is the Difference

'People with BPD also have a tendency to think in extremes, a phenomenon called "dichotomous" or “black-or-white” thinking.3 People with BPD often struggle to see the complexity in people and situations and are unable to recognize that things are often not either perfect or horrible, but are something in between.
Dichotomous thinking can lead to "splitting," which refers to an inability to maintain a cohesive set of beliefs about oneself and others. Because of these extreme patterns of thinking, people with borderline personality disorder are prone to slip from one side to the opposite side in their thinking.
For example, they might one day believe their partner is the most wonderful, loving person in the world. The next day, they may think their partner is evil, hateful, and contemptuous.'

Any thoughts appreciated.

Are you close to this person Op?

do you need to spend time understanding this and then?

if not, don’t bother!

I have a family member diagnosed with NPD as part of a criminal prosecution. Yes they believe their delusions. It is part of the condition they are not psychotic it isn't psychosis but they are delusional, grandiose, lacking empathy.

We have the absolute minimum of contact with them.

I have a friend diagnosed with BPD she is not narcissistic and can be very caring but she has zero emotional regulation and she can lack insight and empathy if things start to not go her way. There can be overlap in traits but only on a bad day for BPD for NPD every day is a bad day.

I had to cut off my sister for my own self protection after she physically attacked me minutes after our mum died, then blamed me. You can't reason with some people with these disorders and they're often resistant to getting help. My sister has never taken responsibility for any mistakes or attacks she's done, it's always the other person's fault. My family go along with it for fear of rocking the boat, I refuse to any longer.

On the other side, I worked closely with someone with BPD. She sought out treatment and successfully worked in a role that needed high levels of empathy and compassion. I'm still friends with her 10 years on, I've moved jobs and she's in the same role at the same company.

Yes, NPD is a bad day every day for the people having to deal with them.

Interesting. What I have found with this individual is that she knowingly lies about blatant things she knows to be untrue. E.g. historically she told people she had SEN children. She hasn't. I assume this is to gain false sympathy? This is why the lying is pathological because the intent behind it to 'gain' something. I refuse to believe this person is delusional to the point of thinking her son did not attend her wedding (another lie she tells) when he absolutely did. There are photos ffs.

However, I do believe she has convinced herself of incorrect versions of events on some occasions because she has told that version so many times it's become an ingrained memory, albeit false.

I suppose it is a mix of the two, believing the delusions through self deception and knowingly lying (pathological) through deception of others. The first is to cope (or not) with their reality and the latter is be emotionally vampirical.

I suppose the first step is having enough self awareness to seek treatment, unfortunately with these conditions one of the symptoms is convincing themselves 'everyone else has the problem' without realising the common denominator is them.

The worst thing you can do is try to understand people with bpd, for your own wellbeing, as mean as it sounds, their behaviour is so emotionally driven and neurotic that they mostly lack insight into themselves and will draw those in around them like a hurricane.
There is usually a lot of self percieved trauma, being the victim and always drama. I think people with bpd thrive on drama, in the sense that they dont feel complete or seen without it.
A lot of mental health professionals refuse to acknowlede bpd as a mental health disorder, or one that can be resolved

The delusion is more around whether telling lies is acceptable. The NPD in our life was violent. He knows violence is wrong but his violence is justifiable. That is the difference. In your case lying is a completely reasonable thing to do but they know lying is wrong for others.

I gave up trying to understand my sister, it took over 30 years of her attacks though. What upset me most was my family's reaction, I felt they supported me much less than her after I cut her off, for example she was invited to family events and I wasn't. My guess is they expected me to continue putting up with it, as they were, and that they didn't want her to turn on them.

I've had therapy since then which has almost allowed me to find peace, but I'll never be in contact with her again in any way. Unfortunately this has meant missing important occasions like my mum's funeral, and my dad is aware I won't be at his if she is. I'm not prepared to take the risk of being attacked again.

That's very sad but I can totally see why you would want to avoid any type of contact. I have noticed people with a PD don't seem to be able to let things go. If they have perceived someone as an enemy it is a grudge they hold for life and they don't ever seem to tire about revisiting or retelling the tale to others. It must be exhausting really.

@Sugardown I didn't get to see your deleted comment.

There are some very good, comprehensive and informative videos on YouTube. Obviously be careful about what you believe because it's the Internet, but there is some amazing channels and info about.
Search the terms on YouTube and I advise you to watch the following:
Dr. Daniel Fox, Dr. Ramani Durvasula, Dr. Jerry Wise (moreso if you are recovering from the abuse of someone with those traits), AJ Mahari, some of Kati Morton.
I know this because I need to heal from my mother's abuse.

I agree with all of those except for Ramani. I believe she’s a narcissist herself. .

@ByGreyWriter Thank you for sharing your experience so candidly. I think it is a positive story overall, you seem to have a great sense of self awareness, you have reflected on and identified the times where you have been the issue rather than blaming others. That is a huge achievement.

Well done in following through with treatment 👏