Bipolar is this normal? When and how do I support?

[Asking4her]

Firstly I want to say sorry if I word anything badly or say anything that may upset people. I'm not meaning to. I'm just trying to understand things in order to support my adult Dd. And also do the right thing and understand better.

So Adult Dd has a diagnosis of emotional unsuitable personality disorder, ptsd,and bipolar.

So with dd everything seems exsadrated.
Examples: someone acidently knocks her baby buggy. It does not move its fine baby not effect in anyway .. dd version is OMG people are knocking into my pram . They almost knocked it over. People need to be careful. But she's raising her voice abd ranting and making it seem worse than it really is.

This one is a bit sensitive few weeks back dd took to many tablets on purpose. She did it at my house. I won't go into why she did it. But she said she took 32 paracetamol and cut her wrist. The cut wrist were like a slight cat scratch . I also found out she took 14 paracetamol not 32. Obviously it runs deeper than how many she took . And there's support for that . But im wondering why would she say she took more than she did ?

Also she will send me messages about how she can't cope. They kids are playing up she argues with people on the bus then phones me up crying and it turns out to be nothing or dd has mouthed it of to someone over something stupid. I travel with het on the bus 3 times a day and I often have to tell her to stop .

She will do something similar when she's home. Weather she's had some type of fall out with a friend, or the kids are playing up.

One last example is sge says sgew really ill when it does not seem that way .

So she will say /do all the above . Then the next rhubg on social media shew making jokes , dancing and doing silly happy stuff that's within 10 mins or so of simlar stuff to the above happening.

So I support dd best I can in the following ways, she gos to the gym 3 times a week so I have her baby. Also baby sit whilst she has driving lessons. We do the morning school run together. And sometimes the afternoon one. I have her kids sometimes when she wants to go out. She pops over often. So her ds can play with their uncles as they are simlar ages. And for a bit of company. But it can be very hard work because everything seems dramatised.

The plan with professionals is that when dd is in crises she comes to me . With the kids and I take over for a few days which is fine.

So im very confused on how I separate things how do I know when dd truely needs me and when it's a dd having a kind of moment.

I'm sorry this is written really badly . I have dyslexia /learning difficulties and have found it very hard to explain.

I wouldn't say my bipolar presents like this. Personal relationships can be harder when I'm manic or in a mixed state and I get frustrated. Whether it is more consistent with one of the other conditions or it relates to how she is coping with her mental health.

How stable is her mental health at the moment, signs of high moods possibly could give personality changes that might give something like the descriptions of your daughter

It took a long time for me get into a space where I could take responsibility for my own mental health. My partner supports me but it is my responsibility to reach out to professionals and engage with there help. There's seems to be a bit of a breakdown in trust between the two of you, with her not quite being honest about her actions. I wonder what toll this is taking on your wellbeing too

That sounds more like EUPD than bipolar.

Thank you . I don't tell dd any of the suff I have said here because I don't want to cause any upset and I don't want to upset her for something that may be due to my lack of understanding.

It's like I want to be there for her I want to support her in the best way I can. But I also don't want to be a mug.

Have you had any support on how to provide crisis support?
I am on a waiting list to become a MH first aider at work. I wonder if there are any course or resources for family members. It might give you a framework of what your can do and what is your generosity being taken advantage of. From your description it does sound like she gets a great deal of support from you. I hear your concern about balance.

What professional support does she have? Could you have a joint meeting? When I was under the early intervention team they offered me joint appointments with my partner to help make sure everyone is working in the same direction. I didn't take them up on the offer so I don't know if it would have helped or not

Sounds like some of it is very strong rejection sensitivity. What was she like growing up?

I have bipolar. This isn't bipolar, this is her head. I know because my daughter has it and the lying for attention is classic. The best way I can explain it is that in the moment she is so wrapped in that exact moment that she can't self regulate her emotions and she shortcuts to the quickest easiest way to feel better. She knows that 32 paracetamol is worse than 12 and that it will get a bigger reaction so that's why. Somebody almost destroying her buggy gets more sympathy than a gentle nudge. Telling people her mother hates her and has kicked her out is better at garnering sympathy than telling the truth that she was grounded and actually is trying to run away to avoid discipline.

I genuinely don't believe these people can control themselves in that split second of madness when they lie about these things. I think for that split second that is how they genuinely perceive it and that that makes it real to them. If you raise the issue of lying they often react even worse and then use that itself as further justification for cutting you off and as proof that everybody is against them.

My daughter has been incredibly challenging. She's now 26 and having her 4 th baby in 3 years and often calls crying that she can't cope but she actively chooses to carry on despite struggling with the kids she already has. It's horrific. Ido as much as I can but she's in absolute poverty and struggles with everything but the second I suggest she stops having kids I am cut off for a month. I'm forbidden from saying anything that doesn't agree with her skewed views.

She is 100% unable to accept responsibility for her own behaviour. She has an incredibly immature emotional level and when it's bad she is is an absolute emotional vampire, nobody can be happy around her. But when she's happy and stable she's a delight to be around. There doesn't seem to be a middle ground. It's all or nothing.

It's the most challenging thing I've ever dealt with and I hate it.

I'm bipolar. I suffer extreme periods of mania and depression, occasionally I have rapid cycling episodes and hallucinate. But i am 100% able to take personal responsibility for when I treat people badly. I know that other people exist and are t just non playing characters in my very own game, she doesn't always realise that. I am emotionally mature and can accept I've made mistakes. That's the difference.

"I have bipolar. This isn't bipolar, this is her head."

That should say it's her EUPD not head

Hi there,

This sounds like text book Emotionally Unstable Personality Disorder (formally Borderline Personality Disorder). Usually caused by complex trauma as a child but can also be genetics.

The current plan with professionals is not enough.

Your daughter needs to see a GP for proper support.

As a personality disorder is a disorder of personality and not of mind, (in simple terms) medication won’t cure it but can lessen the symptoms with the view to eventually come off. EUPD reacts best to Dialectical Behaviour Therapy and over time, with proper support, most people can dramatically reduce their symptoms and recover.

One of the main symptoms of EUPD is chronic shifts in moods. One minute very happy and then if something happens that is emotionally challenging, feelings of desperation can completely take over.

EUPD is notoriously difficult to treat and not well understood. Unfortunately, people with EUPD have been somewhat stigmatised and called ‘manipulative’ or ‘attention-seeking’. They are not. They are unable to regulate their emotions and self soothe. Most well adjusted and healthy adults are able to do this as they have been given the tools in childhood to do so but this is not the case in adults with EUPD.

Your next step would be to get your daughter to the GP to make a plan. Please also look after yourself.

This is a very simple explanation to make things easier for you as you said you have difficulties.

Wishing you the very best.

Thank you . Yes this sounds just like Dd . Nut you say it's not bipolar? But she has been diagnosed with it ? So I'm a bit confused what you mean . Everything makes sense though.

She was diagnosed with personality disorder a while back . She's been diagnosed with bipolar recently. So can it be both?

My sibling has bipolar and this sounds a lot like their behaviour in a manic phase. But it's followed by extreme contrition and feelings of guilt and shame when they're on a downer.

@Asking4her

I'm not saying she is NOT bipolar. But that bipolar is very different to EUPD.

My daughter has EUPD. And I've listed her issues and behaviour. I have bipolar. That can cause mood swings, mania, depression, and yes you can lie like a rug as you literally aren't in your right mind and may be convinces what you are saying is true at the time. But EUPD is a very different thing. It's a personality disorder. Bipolar is a mood disorder. Mood stabilisers/antipsychotics may help with the bipolar but they won't do jack for EUPD.

People with EUPD are often accused of being incredibly manipulative but the simple truth is that what others perceive as manipulation is actually the person going down the quickest path that they can to get the thing they need to feel better. If they urgently need people to rally around them to boost their confidence/make then feel loved/like they are important, of course they have to lie about taking an overdose or trying to commit suicide because getting a qualification or learning to play the piano to get a boost in confidence/feeling loved and secure/like you have achieved something takes time and effort. They have to be incredibly efficient in getting their hit, and they will lie and hurt people to do it in the moment. It's a personality disorder, it takes YEARS of therapy to sort of and unpick and they can get better but they tend to prefer instant gratification so will go to therapy 3-4 times and claim to be cured and refuse to attend again.

People with severe ADHD have a dopamine deficiency and this can create problems with immediate gratification and in extremes can cause lying and very poor behaviour problems. Has she been assessed for adhd? Because stimulants can be life changing in positive ways and really help to regulate Peter through the daytime and enable them create healthy routines with study etc to achieve actual tangible things like qualifications. This can create a firmer foundation of self belief and self confuse and reduces the need and urge to lie.

Basically with EUPD it's a chronic and desperate self doubt, horrific insecurity and a very unstable sense of self. They can't trust their own emotions or rely on others. All their positive affirmations and confidence needs to come from external sources and you can never ever fill that hole. They are unable to do it alone. Ever. . They will bleed you dry if you carry on. You need to encourage therapy to boost their self conduce and enable them to plug that hole themselves and fill their own bucket up with small things like self care, study, career etc.

Yes she can be both bipolar and have EUPD. She could also have ADHD. If she thrives on conflict that could indicate that she's causing the conflict for a dopamine hit, the conflict literally gets her high and then she crashes down twenty/30 minutes after it's over.

Bipolar will often improve with anti psychotics/mood stabilisers. ADHD will often improve with stimulants. Eupd, nothing will change it but treating bipolar and adhd ( if she has it) would remove/reduce those symptoms and the lying/attention seeking tour stuff would still be there. There are no pills for that. You literally need reprogramming through therapy to get better.

Thank you so much this is making alot of sense. So when she's doing the things i said in my op. Should I keep my reaction to it toned down and basic ?

Yes, we call it " not feeding the troll".

Anytime we have a special event, anything that she's not the absurd centre of attention of, she always has an "emergency" that diverts attention back to her. So my son was doing a debut in a stage show and on his first night, 10 minutes better the curtain went up she called to say somebody had thrown a brick through the window. So my DH went home and called 111, called a glazier to board up the window and came back in. That's it. We didn't reprimand her ( we know she broke the window) and we didn't give her any feed back at all negative or positive. We simply said we were gutted we had to pay for the window and pocket money/spends would have to be reduced to cover it.

When we were on a big family holiday and she didn't want to come as she was too old she hounded us about how sick she was and how she needed an ambiance and so we're called her mental health nurse and left it to them.

When we feel she's looking to create drama or an argument we just nod and nod. If she pushes us we withdraw and don't reply to constant text messages. If she threatens spice or self harm I simply say that if that's the case I will be reporting it to the police to do a welfare check and she knows after so many times they will look at a charge of wasting police time.

But we DO give her plenty of praise and feedback for when she does things well or attends therapy or is on a steady even keel. Add I said, when she's great she's amazing, lovely to be around. But if she thinks /perceives somebody is against her then it's gloves off and it's like she wants to burn the house down.no, burn the town down!

We just withdraw, grey rock and wait for it to burn out for us it's 24-48 hours, occasionally longer . It can be really hard but it's improved my mental health no end by stepping away and refusing to engage in her trying to ratchet up my anxiety, so I lose my temper and then she wins. Be warned though, when you start doing this, it often gets worse as they feel like they are losing control and will do airing to get it back. It's like a leech that feeds off you. When you try to pull it off it just grips on tighter and tighter in a last ditch effort to keep its food source.

If you are ND OP then there's a greater chance she is too. ASD (not sure about ADHD) is often first misdiagnosed as EUPD and or Bipolar disorder. But at the same time people with ASD (again not sure about ADHD) are more likely to also suffer from personality disorders than the average person.

I think the safest thing OP is probably to assume that if you can't talk her down after 10 or 15 minutes then she needs you. However that really is a lot for you to be dealing with and it sounds like maybe she needs more MH support or her meds looking at or something.

I would say her lying is probably attention seeking in the way that she feels like she desperately, desperately needs attention maybe due the EUPD, I think it's pretty normal behaviour with that. It can feel very manipulative but it comes from a place of being hugely over sensitive and extremely fearful rather than a place of malice. It's her disorder talking basically.

Thank you . I already kind of do this . The only time i really react is if she's being horrible to her son when we are on the bus . And if she tries to make an argument with random people.

They can co-exist but from what you described here it sounds more like EUPD. What is her current treatment plan or medications?

I also thought ADHD. Especially if she finds out hard to cope with the normal stresses of life and gets overwhelmed. Can go hand in hand with rejection sensitivity. ADHD can be medicated so it might be worth looking into. Plenty of women are misdiagnosed with other disorders as ADHD presents differently in females.

She's on lithium? And recently finished 10 sessions of therapy.