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to want to get off my antidepressants asap after this evening’s Panorama?

338 replies

GeraniumGirl · 19/06/2023 22:52

Anyone else feel the same after watching the programme tonight?

OP posts:
Thread gallery
9
kizziee · 20/06/2023 19:36

@TaraRhu which ones do you take that have been ok with withdrawal ?

MumblesParty · 20/06/2023 20:08

GeraniumGirl · 19/06/2023 23:32

It is the psychiatrists who have put me on practically every AD under the sun over the years though.

The psychiatrists haven’t “put you on” medication. You have consulted doctors with clinical symptoms, for which medical treatment has been offered, and you’ve chosen to take it. Take some responsibility and ownership of the situation. Take them if you want to take them, don’t take them if you don’t.

GeraniumGirl · 20/06/2023 20:14

MumblesParty · 20/06/2023 20:08

The psychiatrists haven’t “put you on” medication. You have consulted doctors with clinical symptoms, for which medical treatment has been offered, and you’ve chosen to take it. Take some responsibility and ownership of the situation. Take them if you want to take them, don’t take them if you don’t.

Bit harsh. Didn’t have any choice when sectioned.

OP posts:
MumblesParty · 20/06/2023 20:15

Playawayway · 20/06/2023 10:39

Do you think you would have preferred doctors not to offer you meds? To instead say, whilst some people seem to benefit from them, they don’t work for many people, they are a struggle to come off and we don’t really know how they work.

Most people see the psychiatrist expecting ‘something’. Once patients have had their free nhs psychology (if accepted) then the only tangible thing doctors can offer is meds. People can of course also access social and support groups if available.

I am really interested if people would prefer doctors not to offer them meds in the first place. And if the patients request antidepressants, should doctors say no?

Exactly!
If you don’t want medication, don’t go to the doctor. These days the only psychiatric treatment GPs have is medication or referral to the crisis team. Everything else is self referral. And yet as a GP I have patient after patient coming to see me with anxiety/depression, wanting me to wave a magic wand.

Antidepressants may not work for everyone but they work for many. If you don’t want them, then unless you’re in crisis, don’t go to your GP in the first place. The receptionists can signpost you to the talking therapy services.

MumblesParty · 20/06/2023 20:16

GeraniumGirl · 20/06/2023 20:14

Bit harsh. Didn’t have any choice when sectioned.

i just get sick of this narrative that all doctors do is put patients on horrible drugs whilst sneakily holding back the magical treatment that really works. Therapy and medication is pretty much all there is. Take it or don’t take it, but don’t blame the doctors.

GeraniumGirl · 20/06/2023 20:20

MumblesParty · 20/06/2023 20:16

i just get sick of this narrative that all doctors do is put patients on horrible drugs whilst sneakily holding back the magical treatment that really works. Therapy and medication is pretty much all there is. Take it or don’t take it, but don’t blame the doctors.

Did you watch the Panarama programme?

A lot of people have been given inaccurate information about what the drugs can do and no warnings of the potential difficulties of getting off them.

OP posts:
MadKittenWoman · 20/06/2023 20:28

I have been on 20mg of Citalopram for many years, and am happy to stay on for life as agreed with my doctors. With them, I feel like me. Without them, I'm VERY angry and upset, anxious and depressed. Partly chemical imbalance, partly result of a narcissist mother and Catholic convent guilt.

YESSTEVE · 20/06/2023 20:40

@GeraniumGirl Do you think you are one those people who have been out on meds incorrectly? What are you afraid of by staying on the medication? If it’s working for you, then why would you change that? What’s worrying you most? Xxx

TaraRhu · 20/06/2023 21:18

@kizziee Prozac was fine so was citalopram . Weaned off gradually. Prozac was fine going on too.

Shamefulsecrets0 · 20/06/2023 21:34

MumblesParty · 20/06/2023 20:16

i just get sick of this narrative that all doctors do is put patients on horrible drugs whilst sneakily holding back the magical treatment that really works. Therapy and medication is pretty much all there is. Take it or don’t take it, but don’t blame the doctors.

The problem is while there is no magic wand, and it's certainly not the GPs fault, mental health services in the UK are abysmal. I've been refused appointments from my surgery while in crisis because 'depression isn't an emergency', been stuck on waiting lists for 9 months only to be told that the service can't provide for my level of need (in those words!) And that I have to go on another waiting list....then the same thing happens.....to be told I need a certain type of therapy but it's not available in my local NHS trust and so I'm on my own again.....and my GP is fantastic I really don't blame him at all, but my psychiatrist only contacts me every 3 months - if that appointment doesn't get cancelled because if it does it takes another 3 months to reschedule it - meanwhile there are so many of us being let down by the service and left to rot basically that it's no wonder the patients get frustrated.

I know GPs work ridiculously hard and your all faced with an impossible job because the provision just isn't there but sadly it can be very difficult to see that as a patient when your desperate. I know I've had times when I'm really unwell that I've been thouroghly convinced that the healthcare providers want me to commit suicide because then they won't have to bother with me.

ilovetomatoes · 20/06/2023 21:41

I started on Sertraline 3 months ago. I love how calm I feel, I don’t describe it as numb rather I’m just more stable. I was so angry and emotional all the time. This has really helped me.

the side effects for me are fatigue but I’m hoping that will tail off. I’m losing weight on it because I was such an emotional eater before so would inhale a whole pack of biscuits for example.

what did panorama say about libido? That’s worrying

LonginesPrime · 20/06/2023 22:07

Did you watch the Panarama programme?

A lot of people have been given inaccurate information about what the drugs can do and no warnings of the potential difficulties of getting off them.

That's not true though, as the difficulties coming off of them (including a laundry list of horrible side effects when stopping them) and the warnings about not stopping them without medical supervision are very clearly set out in the medication leaflet inside every box.

IwishIcouldButIcantSoIwont · 20/06/2023 22:09

OrwellianTimes · 19/06/2023 23:08

Antidepressants saved my life, twice. They have an important place against severe clinical depression.

They are massively overprescribed though, and that is the big issue.

I agree. I've been on Mirtazapine for about 5 years now, and would rather take them for the rest of my days than ever feel as terrible as I did when I had a breakdown.

kizziee · 20/06/2023 23:34

@TaraRhu thank you

melinab · 20/06/2023 23:40

MumblesParty · 20/06/2023 20:15

Exactly!
If you don’t want medication, don’t go to the doctor. These days the only psychiatric treatment GPs have is medication or referral to the crisis team. Everything else is self referral. And yet as a GP I have patient after patient coming to see me with anxiety/depression, wanting me to wave a magic wand.

Antidepressants may not work for everyone but they work for many. If you don’t want them, then unless you’re in crisis, don’t go to your GP in the first place. The receptionists can signpost you to the talking therapy services.

Actually, ADs do not work for many people - over 50% of clinical trials presented of ADs submitted to the FDA are null or negative. I understand why you are defensive for having prescribed these to patients but to blame the patient for seeking help is not nice. NICE guidelines are that ADs ARE NOT first line of treatment because of lack of efficacy and physical dependence. People don't come to a GP for a magic wand, they come for help and there are many ways in which a GP can help - referral to therapy, testing for other reasons why people may be depressed - hormones, vitamins (B12, D, iron, magnesium), other neurological symptoms and diagnosis considerations. Do you use a PHQ-9 instrument to measure severity of depression for each individual? When you presceibe citalopram or venlafaxine do you do pre-prescriptions ECGs to test for cardiac issues? Do you do all those for every one of your patients? My GP doesn't. Also many GPs do not warn patients of the withdrawal effects and the side effects. Then they take patients off of these medicines with bizarre regimens like one day on, one day off which puts the brain in chaos and has no basis in any clinical study. Or they ignore withdrawal symptoms and call them relapse.

It would be helpful to instead of lash out on people who rightfully question their treatment in light of new evidence to learn from their experience and offer compassion. If there is no compassion to give then why post at all?

https://www.nice.org.uk/guidance/ng222/chapter/Recommendations#recognition-and-assessment

https://www.nice.org.uk/guidance/ng222/resources/discussing-firstline-treatments-for-less-severe-depression-pdf-11131007006

As OP said, some people also do not have a choice. Being sectioned means that she may not have sought help herself but someone else made reported her and she was forced to take the medicines.

Recommendations | Depression in adults: treatment and management | Guidance | NICE

https://www.nice.org.uk/guidance/ng222/chapter/Recommendations#recognition-and-assessment

melinab · 20/06/2023 23:45

Triptoqueen · 20/06/2023 05:13

Does this make sense?

If it’s a placebo how can it be difficult to come off them - they are contradicting themselves!

Hi @Triptoqueen
This is a common misunderstanding and in general placebo effects are often misunderstood.

When we say ADs are 15% better than placebo what we mean is that in randomized clinical trials where people were randomly assigned to take either a sugar-pill without any active ingredient (placebo) or the tested pill (ADs in this case) on average 60 out of 100 people given dummy pills got better and 75 out of people on the AD got better. So 15 more people out of 100 got better because of the AD. The number needed to treat (NNT) which means how many people need to take these drugs in order for one person to benefit for ADs is 7. For insulin it's 1. Note that ALL these trials are conducted on people who are moderately or severely depressed, not just mild cases of depression or anxiety. Most of these studies are done for 6 weeks.

What is more interesting is that in most of these trials there is what we call a run-in phase where ALL people in both arms of the clinical trial i.e. those that were assigned to take the placebo and those that were assigned to take the drug are initially given only sugar pills for the first two weeks and those who improve during those two weeks are then taken out of the trial, so placebo responders are weeded out first. Which means that placebo responses are even higher than documented in the trial.

So the conclusion then is that of the 75 people who got better on ADs, 60 would have gotten better with only sugar pills. Why do they get better with just sugar pills? We don't exactly know. It is possible that depression by itself resolves without pills in most people if given enough time. Or it may be the pills give people hope that the depression is curable that makes the body mobilize itself. It may be the attention that people get from the doctor. We simply don't know. But placebo effects exist.

People suspected that a placebo effect existed for a long time but its power was clearly demonstrated when a doctor gave women with morning sickness ipecac a substance whose effect is to induce vomiting. He told the women that this was a drug that actually cured morning sickness. And sure enough for a substantial percentage of the women their morning sickness went away DESPITE being given a substance that should have made it worse BECAUSE the women were told that it would.

Placebo effects are prominent in trials of pain, anxiety, Parkinson's disease but also in cancer and diabetes - virtually every area of medicine. That is why we test drugs against placebo before approval - to be sure that the effect we observe is due to the drug and not just to our belief in it. Because drugs have serious side effects, we want to know that the benefits justify the costs. Placebo effects exist in surgery as well. Some sham surgeries provide as much improvement as the real surgery. Given that a surgery is very 'costly' and 'risky' we need to know that it has an impact. However, not all surgeries are tested against placebo the way drugs are.

To approve/license a drug the FDA requires that it is better than placebo in 2 trials ONLY. The company can run 15 trials of which 13 show that the drug is not better than placebo or that it is worse than placebo but as long as the company can show that the drug is better than placebo in 2 trials the drug gets approved. If you look at the totality of the trials submitted to the FDA the majority of the AD trials are negative - i.e. they do not show that the drug is better than the placebo and in some cases they show that the drug is worse than the placebo - i.e. more people in the placebo arm of the trial get better than people in the AD arm. Note that companies have to disclose all trials that they have run to the FDA but they don't have to disclose all these negative trials to doctors or patients. These statistics are obtained by a Freedom of Information act from the FDA and listed in the paper below:

Now the fact that a when we say that a drug is not better than placebo does NOT mean that it has no effect on the body. Take as an example a chemotherapy drug that is being tested on breast cancer and fails against placebo. The trial shows that the drug is not better than a sugar pill IN TREATING CANCER - 20% of people on the sugar pill get better and 18% of the people on the tested drug get better. BUT it also doesn't mean that the drug did not have an effect on the body. Chemotherapy drugs are often toxic and this drug may have damaged someone's heart or kidneys or killed them. What we mean when we say it is no better than placebo is that it was not better for the effect that we tested - could be depression or anxiety or OCD. In our case if a drug is no better than placebo then that means it did not improve depression symptoms better than the placebo. It doesn't mean that a drug that is no better than placebo in treating depression can't cause dependence. Lots of ADHD or cancer drugs are no better at treating depression than sugar pills but they do have an effect on the heart and do cause physical dependence the way that ADs cause physical dependence.

Antidepressants do have effects on the body. In fact they can have routinely have severe start-up effects - they often increase anxiety and worsen symptoms such as sleep in the first few weeks. That is why when people say that they immediately made them feel better, I would suspect that it is more likely to be a placebo effect than a true physiological response. But for any individual it is impossible to say whether the effect was a placebo effect or a genuine physiological effect.

ADs also numb people's feelings which is probably what many people find helpful. But they don't numb just anxiety and depression, they also numb sexual feelings, they numb joy, they numb anger, they numb love for spouses and children (things people are not very willing to admit), they numb ambition and motivation. Helen Fisher has videos and a book about their effect on romantic relationships.

As many people have said this is an effect that works for them, especially those who find themselves in situations that are not fixable or easily fixable - bad marriages without financial independence and with care responsibilities were one example given - life can be cruel to many of us. They can be a band-aid that helps people function. But the vast majority of the people prescribed these medicines are not in these situations - they can change their circumstances - quit a bad job, get a divorce, create more social connection, exercise, see a therapist, treat an underlying disease etc. Different things work for different people. A lot of women who are prescribed these medicines have vitamin deficiencies, thyroid issues, are going through menopause. These drugs are too costly in terms of side effects and physical dependence to justify the risk of prescription for hot flashes (there are also better treatments). Yet 30% of women who go to their GP with menopause symptoms are offered these drugs. [Guardian article, can look up] They end up being a good way to shut women up at the doctor's office and when they get angry about the injustices of the world such as what is demanded of them. 75% of ADs are prescribed to women.

SSRIs and even more likely SNRIs can also create feelings of euphoria, recklessness and general activation in people taking them. That is why your chance of being diagnosed with bipolar disorder increases if you are already on SSRIs. This doesn't mean that they 'unmasked' a latent bipolar disorder, it means that they caused activation and mania that was then misdiagnosed as bipolar disorder. The incidence of bipolar disorder in the general population has risen with the incidence of SSRI/SNRI prescriptions. [Check Out the book Anatomy of an Epidemic by Robert Whitaker, an award winning journalist for the Boston Globe). And it is not because people did not go to be diagnosed with bipolar because of stigma before - bipolar is so debilitating that it is unlikely that so many people were underdiagnosed before the advent of ADs (similar to schizophrenia).

melinab · 20/06/2023 23:55

Just to clarify - 60% and 75% are for illustration purposes - I can't remember the exact numbers.

This below is from the Irving Kirsch paper, really worth a read - written in a simple language and academic terms explained well. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4172306/

"In the data sent to us by the FDA, only 43% of the trials showed a statistically significant benefit of drug over placebo. The remaining 57% were failed or negative trials. Similar results have been reported in other meta-analyses (Turner et al., 2008), including one conducted by the FDA on the clinical trials of all antidepressants that it had approved between 1983 and 2008 (Khin, Chen, Yang, Yang, & Laughren, 2011). The results of our analysis indicated that the placebo response was 82% of the response to these antidepressants. Subsequently, my colleagues and I replicated our meta-analysis on a larger number of trials that had been submitted to the FDA (Kirsch et al., 2008). With this expanded data set, we found once again that 82% of the drug response was duplicated by placebo. More important, in both analyses, the mean difference between drug and placebo was less than two points on the HAM-D. The HAM-D is a 17-item scale on which people can score from 0 to 53 points, depending on how depressed they are. A six-point difference can be obtained just by changes in sleep patterns, with no change in any other symptom of depression. So the 1.8 difference that we found between drug and placebo was very small indeed – small enough to be clinically insignificant. But you don’t have to take my word for how small this difference is. The National Institute for Health and Care Excellence (NICE), which drafts treatment guidelines for the National Health Service in the United Kingdom, has established a three-point difference between drug and placebo on the HAM-D as a criterion of clinical significance (NICE, 2004). Thus, when published and unpublished data are combined, they fail to show a clinically significant advantage for antidepressant medication over inert placebo."

The new data may be slightly different, I haven't looked at that paper, think the 15% effect comes from that data. But that paper is much more complicated so I am posting the older one here. But it's here if you want to have a look.
https://www.bmj.com/content/378/bmj-2021-067606

Antidepressants and the Placebo Effect

Antidepressants are supposed to work by fixing a chemical imbalance, specifically, a lack of serotonin in the brain. Indeed, their supposed effectiveness is the primary evidence for the chemical imbalance theory. But analyses of the published data and...

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4172306/#c34

melinab · 21/06/2023 00:13

@GeraniumGirl ,
please do not let anyone bully you in either direction to stop or continue taking the medication. There is NOTHING shameful in taking medication or struggling with life or being sectioned and not having power over your choices. Absolutely nothing. And we often forget that life is much tougher for some people. Take the Panorama program as information. I haven't seen it but what you have posted seems like it is evidence based and I have tried to provide the evidence for you as much as I know.

Also, please do not make rash decisions. You can explore the option of coming off of these drugs but you should do this from a place of stability and with a clear mind. Staying on these drugs may not be ideal in the long term BUT they are not acutely damaging right now. Quitting them cold turkey or even within a couple of months can become acutely dangerous. Your risk of withdrawal may be higher given that you have likely been on multiple drugs and probably had drug switches (I am basing that on what I have read about people who are sectioned).

If I were you, I would give myself time to absorb all this information and make a decision. If that decision is to come off of the drugs then you can make a plan to do so in a very slow way. You can also make a plan to get as much support as you can during that tapering period - be it from websites like https://www.survivingantidepressants.org/ or Facebook groups, or your GP and people IRL if available. That plan should include ways in which to manage difficult symptoms if they occur and can include focus on exercise, nutrition, taking up hobbies a CBT course (online or through a referral), EMDR or other trauma therapy. I don't know you enough to know what you are already doing and what else could be added to the plan.

This is clearly a divisive topic with many conflicting interests - people who have benefitted from ADs will root one way, people who have been harmed by or suffered from ADs will root another way, GPs or psychiatrists whose jobs depend on prescribing them will encourage you yet another way. Please ignore EVERY ONE of these opinions. Look at the information, see what evidence there is, evaluate your own circumstances and preference and make a decision. Every person's life is different and others' experience should not determine how you act. So take your time to think about this and come to a decision. If you decide to stay, you have the right to change your opinion in the future. If you decide to come off - pls consult survivingantidepressants.org to do it with the lowest risk of withdrawal effects - they call it harm reduction.

Remember that all of these people who have offered their opinions will not bear the consequences of these choices. You are the one who will suffer if you go cold turkey.

I am sorry I didn't get a chance to respond earlier - I was on a plane. But please take care of yourself. You do not deserve to suffer and you CAN find a way not to suffer. I find Kristen Neff's work transformational. https://self-compassion.org/

I also love Claire Weeke's work - she has a bunch of videos and books but this is more about anxiety.

Try getting magnesium supplements - I forgot who asked - I use magnesium citrate but if that gives you tummy issues you can try magnesium glycinate. I would avoid magnesium oxide - too harsh on the tummy. I would also avoid magnesium threonate - people claim it's good for the brain but my experience with it was not great.

Please take a deep breath, give yourself time to absorb this information and make a decision that is right for YOU.

Hugs
Melina

Surviving Antidepressants

Tapering psychiatric drugs

https://www.survivingantidepressants.org

GeraniumGirl · 21/06/2023 00:23

melinab · 21/06/2023 00:13

@GeraniumGirl ,
please do not let anyone bully you in either direction to stop or continue taking the medication. There is NOTHING shameful in taking medication or struggling with life or being sectioned and not having power over your choices. Absolutely nothing. And we often forget that life is much tougher for some people. Take the Panorama program as information. I haven't seen it but what you have posted seems like it is evidence based and I have tried to provide the evidence for you as much as I know.

Also, please do not make rash decisions. You can explore the option of coming off of these drugs but you should do this from a place of stability and with a clear mind. Staying on these drugs may not be ideal in the long term BUT they are not acutely damaging right now. Quitting them cold turkey or even within a couple of months can become acutely dangerous. Your risk of withdrawal may be higher given that you have likely been on multiple drugs and probably had drug switches (I am basing that on what I have read about people who are sectioned).

If I were you, I would give myself time to absorb all this information and make a decision. If that decision is to come off of the drugs then you can make a plan to do so in a very slow way. You can also make a plan to get as much support as you can during that tapering period - be it from websites like https://www.survivingantidepressants.org/ or Facebook groups, or your GP and people IRL if available. That plan should include ways in which to manage difficult symptoms if they occur and can include focus on exercise, nutrition, taking up hobbies a CBT course (online or through a referral), EMDR or other trauma therapy. I don't know you enough to know what you are already doing and what else could be added to the plan.

This is clearly a divisive topic with many conflicting interests - people who have benefitted from ADs will root one way, people who have been harmed by or suffered from ADs will root another way, GPs or psychiatrists whose jobs depend on prescribing them will encourage you yet another way. Please ignore EVERY ONE of these opinions. Look at the information, see what evidence there is, evaluate your own circumstances and preference and make a decision. Every person's life is different and others' experience should not determine how you act. So take your time to think about this and come to a decision. If you decide to stay, you have the right to change your opinion in the future. If you decide to come off - pls consult survivingantidepressants.org to do it with the lowest risk of withdrawal effects - they call it harm reduction.

Remember that all of these people who have offered their opinions will not bear the consequences of these choices. You are the one who will suffer if you go cold turkey.

I am sorry I didn't get a chance to respond earlier - I was on a plane. But please take care of yourself. You do not deserve to suffer and you CAN find a way not to suffer. I find Kristen Neff's work transformational. https://self-compassion.org/

I also love Claire Weeke's work - she has a bunch of videos and books but this is more about anxiety.

Try getting magnesium supplements - I forgot who asked - I use magnesium citrate but if that gives you tummy issues you can try magnesium glycinate. I would avoid magnesium oxide - too harsh on the tummy. I would also avoid magnesium threonate - people claim it's good for the brain but my experience with it was not great.

Please take a deep breath, give yourself time to absorb this information and make a decision that is right for YOU.

Hugs
Melina

Thank you so much @melinab for your kind words and advice

OP posts:
GeraniumGirl · 21/06/2023 00:30

LonginesPrime · 20/06/2023 22:07

Did you watch the Panarama programme?

A lot of people have been given inaccurate information about what the drugs can do and no warnings of the potential difficulties of getting off them.

That's not true though, as the difficulties coming off of them (including a laundry list of horrible side effects when stopping them) and the warnings about not stopping them without medical supervision are very clearly set out in the medication leaflet inside every box.

I think you are wrong, having just checked the leaflet for Citalopram.

It does list the symptoms which can be caused by stopping the medicine “quickly” but it says that the dose is usually reduced gradually “over a couple of weeks”.

It doesn’t mention anything about needing to taper the dose down over many weeks, months or even years to avoid horrendous withdrawal symptoms.

OP posts:
AllLopsided · 21/06/2023 00:48

I didn't see the programme but will never take an SSRI or SNRI again.

I was on a variety of ADs over a period of time, eventually settled on Prozac. After several years feeling fine on it I suddenly started shaking. No one could work out why... neurologist said no issues. I was on a few meds that could have been causing it so I tried tapering off them one at a time (with my Dr's support). Prozac was the second one I tried. It took months and I had no idea whether it would work but the shaking was so debilitating. Eventually I got down to a low enough dose to realise that yes, it was the Prozac. Came off them and thought I'd be OK.

Six months later I was struggling mentally again. My GP suggested Duloxetine, which can also help with pain, another issue I was dealing with. It helped with the depression. It helped with the pain. But the side effects... I felt like I had the worst flu ever. Vertigo, chills, fatigue, brain fog... I could barely move from the sofa. And then the shaking came back - of course it did, because it was a similar class drug to the Prozac and I shouldn't have been put on it, given my history. My doctor urged me to keep going and the side effects would lessen. I lasted 5 weeks then stopped cold turkey.

The flu-like symptoms disappeared quickly but the shaking stayed with me for two months. That's what I find the most frightening - that these drugs that can take so long to completely leave your system are just being handed out like smarties by GPs who know very little about them. I was suicidal from the shaking at that point but luckily was referred to a psychiatrist who helped, prescribed Xanax to dull the panic and did a consult with a psychopharmacologist to try to find out what AD I could take.

I am now on Valdoxan,which doesn't build up in your system as much as SSRIs and other types of AD. It's not the most effective AD ever but the only side effect is that I sleep better.

A friend told me years ago that research showed other things such as a daily 20-minute walk (I forget the other examples) were as effective at treating depression as medication, so this is not new news... just more relevant as so many people are on them I guess.

melinab · 21/06/2023 00:59

melinab · 20/06/2023 23:45

Hi @Triptoqueen
This is a common misunderstanding and in general placebo effects are often misunderstood.

When we say ADs are 15% better than placebo what we mean is that in randomized clinical trials where people were randomly assigned to take either a sugar-pill without any active ingredient (placebo) or the tested pill (ADs in this case) on average 60 out of 100 people given dummy pills got better and 75 out of people on the AD got better. So 15 more people out of 100 got better because of the AD. The number needed to treat (NNT) which means how many people need to take these drugs in order for one person to benefit for ADs is 7. For insulin it's 1. Note that ALL these trials are conducted on people who are moderately or severely depressed, not just mild cases of depression or anxiety. Most of these studies are done for 6 weeks.

What is more interesting is that in most of these trials there is what we call a run-in phase where ALL people in both arms of the clinical trial i.e. those that were assigned to take the placebo and those that were assigned to take the drug are initially given only sugar pills for the first two weeks and those who improve during those two weeks are then taken out of the trial, so placebo responders are weeded out first. Which means that placebo responses are even higher than documented in the trial.

So the conclusion then is that of the 75 people who got better on ADs, 60 would have gotten better with only sugar pills. Why do they get better with just sugar pills? We don't exactly know. It is possible that depression by itself resolves without pills in most people if given enough time. Or it may be the pills give people hope that the depression is curable that makes the body mobilize itself. It may be the attention that people get from the doctor. We simply don't know. But placebo effects exist.

People suspected that a placebo effect existed for a long time but its power was clearly demonstrated when a doctor gave women with morning sickness ipecac a substance whose effect is to induce vomiting. He told the women that this was a drug that actually cured morning sickness. And sure enough for a substantial percentage of the women their morning sickness went away DESPITE being given a substance that should have made it worse BECAUSE the women were told that it would.

Placebo effects are prominent in trials of pain, anxiety, Parkinson's disease but also in cancer and diabetes - virtually every area of medicine. That is why we test drugs against placebo before approval - to be sure that the effect we observe is due to the drug and not just to our belief in it. Because drugs have serious side effects, we want to know that the benefits justify the costs. Placebo effects exist in surgery as well. Some sham surgeries provide as much improvement as the real surgery. Given that a surgery is very 'costly' and 'risky' we need to know that it has an impact. However, not all surgeries are tested against placebo the way drugs are.

To approve/license a drug the FDA requires that it is better than placebo in 2 trials ONLY. The company can run 15 trials of which 13 show that the drug is not better than placebo or that it is worse than placebo but as long as the company can show that the drug is better than placebo in 2 trials the drug gets approved. If you look at the totality of the trials submitted to the FDA the majority of the AD trials are negative - i.e. they do not show that the drug is better than the placebo and in some cases they show that the drug is worse than the placebo - i.e. more people in the placebo arm of the trial get better than people in the AD arm. Note that companies have to disclose all trials that they have run to the FDA but they don't have to disclose all these negative trials to doctors or patients. These statistics are obtained by a Freedom of Information act from the FDA and listed in the paper below:

Now the fact that a when we say that a drug is not better than placebo does NOT mean that it has no effect on the body. Take as an example a chemotherapy drug that is being tested on breast cancer and fails against placebo. The trial shows that the drug is not better than a sugar pill IN TREATING CANCER - 20% of people on the sugar pill get better and 18% of the people on the tested drug get better. BUT it also doesn't mean that the drug did not have an effect on the body. Chemotherapy drugs are often toxic and this drug may have damaged someone's heart or kidneys or killed them. What we mean when we say it is no better than placebo is that it was not better for the effect that we tested - could be depression or anxiety or OCD. In our case if a drug is no better than placebo then that means it did not improve depression symptoms better than the placebo. It doesn't mean that a drug that is no better than placebo in treating depression can't cause dependence. Lots of ADHD or cancer drugs are no better at treating depression than sugar pills but they do have an effect on the heart and do cause physical dependence the way that ADs cause physical dependence.

Antidepressants do have effects on the body. In fact they can have routinely have severe start-up effects - they often increase anxiety and worsen symptoms such as sleep in the first few weeks. That is why when people say that they immediately made them feel better, I would suspect that it is more likely to be a placebo effect than a true physiological response. But for any individual it is impossible to say whether the effect was a placebo effect or a genuine physiological effect.

ADs also numb people's feelings which is probably what many people find helpful. But they don't numb just anxiety and depression, they also numb sexual feelings, they numb joy, they numb anger, they numb love for spouses and children (things people are not very willing to admit), they numb ambition and motivation. Helen Fisher has videos and a book about their effect on romantic relationships.

As many people have said this is an effect that works for them, especially those who find themselves in situations that are not fixable or easily fixable - bad marriages without financial independence and with care responsibilities were one example given - life can be cruel to many of us. They can be a band-aid that helps people function. But the vast majority of the people prescribed these medicines are not in these situations - they can change their circumstances - quit a bad job, get a divorce, create more social connection, exercise, see a therapist, treat an underlying disease etc. Different things work for different people. A lot of women who are prescribed these medicines have vitamin deficiencies, thyroid issues, are going through menopause. These drugs are too costly in terms of side effects and physical dependence to justify the risk of prescription for hot flashes (there are also better treatments). Yet 30% of women who go to their GP with menopause symptoms are offered these drugs. [Guardian article, can look up] They end up being a good way to shut women up at the doctor's office and when they get angry about the injustices of the world such as what is demanded of them. 75% of ADs are prescribed to women.

SSRIs and even more likely SNRIs can also create feelings of euphoria, recklessness and general activation in people taking them. That is why your chance of being diagnosed with bipolar disorder increases if you are already on SSRIs. This doesn't mean that they 'unmasked' a latent bipolar disorder, it means that they caused activation and mania that was then misdiagnosed as bipolar disorder. The incidence of bipolar disorder in the general population has risen with the incidence of SSRI/SNRI prescriptions. [Check Out the book Anatomy of an Epidemic by Robert Whitaker, an award winning journalist for the Boston Globe). And it is not because people did not go to be diagnosed with bipolar because of stigma before - bipolar is so debilitating that it is unlikely that so many people were underdiagnosed before the advent of ADs (similar to schizophrenia).

2/3rds of the people taking ADs are women, not 75% just to correct my statement. I remembered 75% for some reason but it may have been for a subsection of the population. The important point is that men and women report depression at the same rate but more women are prescribed ADs.
https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/bjpsych-bulletin/article/are-men-undertreated-and-women-overtreated-with-antidepressants-findings-from-a-crosssectional-survey-in-sweden/AD204C3BD8023F1DA71D926EAB6C6CE3

In the UK in 2013
https://www.bmj.com/content/349/bmj.g7641#:~:text=The%20annual%20Health%20Survey%20for,to%2064%20reported%20taking%20them.

"The annual Health Survey for England1 found that 11% of women took antidepressants, compared with 5.5% of men. Their use was most common among middle aged women, as 16% of women aged 45 to 64 reported taking them"

Are men under-treated and women over-treated with antidepressants? Findings from a cross-sectional survey in Sweden | BJPsych Bulletin | Cambridge Core

Are men under-treated and women over-treated with antidepressants? Findings from a cross-sectional survey in Sweden - Volume 41 Issue 3

https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/bjpsych-bulletin/article/are-men-undertreated-and-women-overtreated-with-antidepressants-findings-from-a-crosssectional-survey-in-sweden/AD204C3BD8023F1DA71D926EAB6C6CE3

stillherenow · 21/06/2023 06:41

A daily walk is not as effective. I was doing this. Running helped a little (but I got injured ) but nothing has completely cleared the constant anxiety in the way that ADs have. I also had NHS counselling which began about a fortnight after I started the medication and in my first session I said I didn’t think I needed counselling anymore - and the counsellor agreed and said if my symptoms were due to trauma (which I have experienced) the ADs wouldn’t have cleared it as effectively on their own. My symptoms were definitely chemically induced and they needed / need medication. I think I have gone about a decade of trying to manage my anxiety and while running etc has lowered it nothing else has treated it the way that ADs have. I’m completely evangelical about them.

stillherenow · 21/06/2023 06:47

I do agree they numb some feelings as well. I can’t cry for eg, and I don’t get emotional
about anything, even things I should. I’m single so I have no concerns about romantic relationships. It’s improved my relationship
with DD though as I am supercalm and we are great now ! She described me as constantly ‘fizzy’ before. I think I still feel joy , it’s been so long I felt this anyway I’m not sure! I am mainly very very content and happy.

stillherenow · 21/06/2023 06:51

Actually the counselling must have been a
montb after. The first fortnight was tricky with massive mood swings but within that I’d have an hour or so of calmness which would give me relief and hope that they might work for me - and I really hadn’t expected that, I was just desperate . I certainly hadn’t expected all the benefits such as driving so much better !!