Very worried about a friend's teen...

[RunicWords]

I'm friendly with the mum of one of my 13-year-old daughter's school friends (since early primary school days). We're not close friends, but we meet up for occasional coffees and chats.

Anyway, my daughter is not close to this girl (let's call her H), but they are in the same friendship group. H has always been socially awkward with very strange / unusual behaviour and mannerisms. I realize I'm no expert but I'd say she has some kind of disorder, whether autism or something else. However, her mother – as far as I can gauge from conversations with her – is very against any kind of 'labelling'. Obviously, I've never said a word about my thoughts to her because I absolutely know it's not my place.

Anyway, H has really struggled in secondary school and is now refusing to attend altogether. She's very bright but I suspect the pandemic made her anxieties around school/friendships worse and going back wasn't easy. She hasn't attended school for many months now.

I saw her mother recently who described how H literally stays in her room with her computer / phone and doesn't engage with her parents at all (not even at meal times). She only comes out to get food, which she takes back to her room. She's an only child, so has no contact with other children in the home. Apparently she isn't doing any schoolwork at all. She was seeing a CAHMS counsellor (who believed she has depression) but H now refuses point blank to see her or anyone else, at home or elsewhere. My friend seemed disparaging about CAHMS, I feel like she was quick to say nobody understands her daughter and she isn't making counselling a priority. Apparently the school are not really engaged since CAHMS got involved – I'm not sure if they can do anything.

I just can't bear to think of this girl shut up in her room 24/7. Her mother speaks like she just needs time to get better, but how can she if she's isolated from the world outside. My daughter receives the odd text from her and says she goes to bed after midnight and gets up at 4pm. I don't think she's communicating with anyone else at school. It's like she's living in some cold, friendless world and has just slipped between the cracks – is there anything I should do? I really don't want to meddle but a voice keeps telling me that nobody is paying any attention to this awful situation.

And yes, I'm supportive and try to be helpful but there's clearly little I can actually do.

And what would you like to be done? CAMHS are aware of this child. The child is not able to access school and her mental health is so bad she can't, at the moment, access family life either.

What's your solution?

Drag the child out of her room and force her into school?

Or you could support the mum who is supposed to be your friend?

Don’t be ridiculous- talk about finding something to be offended at. ‘Some kind of illness’ ‘some kind of disorder’ nothing to note.

Another one here to say it's very easy to suggest all sorts of actions but until you have a depressed/anxious school refuser you will not understand that they cannot be 'jollied out of it' or that being stricter will not help and probably exacerbate the situation. And that CAHMS with the best will in the world is so underfunded as to be effectively useless. It's terribly frustrating and the mother may sound like she doesn't care but this will be a defensive mechanism IMO. Of course, they need to be watched for suicidal feelings and offered emotional support, not just 'left to their own devices', but often they will emerge at the other end when they are ready.
Please stop questioning what the mother is doing and start offering her some support - if you are worried can you imagine how she feels, living with it?

contact both the school and social services. It's a safeguarding issue and it needs to be checked out. Better you raise the alarm for no reason than not raise it at all.

My DD developed some sort of anxiety due to covid & we had a stage where she refused to come out of her room.

We did somehow get her into school September 2020 but she struggled & I managed to get her an appointment with school nurse. I also secured her an appointment with some free counselling.

DD refused to see the nurse again & said she would refuse school if they called her out of lessons. She also refused to engage with the free counselling & it was going to be online which was a non starter at the time.

Other than school she stayed in her room & wouldn't speak to anyone. It was awful.

Honestly what helped was people who continued to make an effort & would speak to her with no judgment/send a text. In her case it was family as she had no friends really.

Changing schools made a big difference. Plus covid restrictions easing off. I don't think you can assume that CAMHS is some sort of magic solution. Also the Mum knows her DD is unwell & is probably frantic with worry.

Could you possibly encourage the girls in the friendship group to keep in touch? Invite her over to watch a film? Go for a walk with her?

I agree with @Twillow offer some support rather than assuming the mother is being too passive.

Thank you for being able to express this in a much more measured way than I can.

I would like her to:
Be aware of what her child is doing in her room and not just say she (and her partner) are not allowed in there. It's her house FGS and she's the parent. Her child is 13. She didn't know she was staying up till 3am or 4am for example, which explains the getting up at 4pm. (My daughter told me). She says her daughter's tiredness shows she's ill.
Not be so dismissive of outside help. She's lucky to have a counsellor who can come to the house. Surely she should be going all out to keep her daughter engaged with these sessions instead of talking as if the system is out to get her. This is a line she's taken ever since I've known her, she finds fault in everyone from teachers to doctors. It's not surprising her daughter is taking on the same attitude. I also think from the long time of knowing this family that her child 'probably' has undiagnosed autism and maybe a diagnosis would be in her best interests. My sister's daughter was recently diagnosed, and honestly, it has helped her to embrace who she is rather than sink into depression. But I'm aware I'm not qualified to make this judgement, it's a hunch...
Maybe she could insist (or at least encourage) her daughter to take meals with the family rather than just allowing her to take food to her room. I'm saying this because I've observed for many years that she is very passive when it comes to setting boundaries. When the kids were very young and her daughter acted out, she allowed her to 'express' herself rather than chastise or discipline. I saw her hitting her mum once and she barely reacted and allowed it to happen.
I haven't listed everything I know because clearly it's impossible. I just sense something really isn't ok about what's going on and I'm worried. Hence the post.

It has no bearing on what happened to you and I'm not judging you or others who find themselves in such a devastating predicament. I bet you fought tooth and nail for your child. I just feel like my friend isn't doing that, she seems strangely passive, and almost facilitating this terrifying withdrawal from the world.
I'm aware this may sound like I think I know best and I can't possibly understand what it's like. But does this mean we should just be passive observers when we're worried about a child's well-being?

As to how I've supported my friend, I haven't listed all our interactions because that would be a long and boring post. I regularly reach out and ask her how she's doing. I listen without being judgmental which is why she's probably told me so much. I've made some gentle suggestions. And I genuinely care about her in all this too. I also encourage my daughter to reach out and keep the texts going, and ask her friend to come out etc.
I'm just worried that her daughter isn't going to get better like this.

Anyway, I'm glad I posted. I've learned quite a bit (between the accusations of meddling) and it's good to know other people's kids have gone through this and come out the other end.

But you are treating this as bad behaviour and poor parenting rather than what it actually is which is a trauma based response which is preventing the child from engaging and attending school.

You don't appear to understand child mental health issues and trauma if you think it is the correct response to go into a teenagers bedroom on the basis that 'this is my house' , rather than allowing the child to have a space that she is safe and able to decompress.

Children tend to want to do well. It is very very unlikely that she is not going to school because she is naughty. If you get to the point that you are unable to access the world there is trauma involved.

Have you considered that the parent is going to be desperate for the child to engage and if she is not going into her room and demanding she come off the internet then it is likely to be because there are bigger things going on, like trying to keep the child alive?

And blaming teachers and doctors for ending up in this state is not unusual either, these things don't tend to happen in a vacuum You don't know how supportive the school have or have not been. If it has broken down with school it is likely they are not blameless. I know from first hand experience how difficult it is to get to the top of the CAMHS waiting list.

A child like this won't get better by forcing parenting and common sense no matter how much you wish or believe it to be true.

I still think you are being judgemental in the point that you think that you could manage the situation better. You are blaming the parent. You simply have no idea. Maybe ask her!

And I probably posted too soon. I had an entire year when my then 11 year old was in exactly the same place as your friend's daughter seems to be. I was just keeping him alive. He refused to engage with any help as he saw it as a threat. Allowing professionals into his 'safe space' which was our home was heightening the anxiety so I wouldn't let them in. Taking him to appointments was impossible as he refused to leave his room, let alone the house.

In the end anxiety medication and time was the only thing that worked. That was a fight.

He went on to do fine , still anxious, but we've learned coping mechanisms through but I don't think he would be alive now if I'd have insisted he leave his room for meals, insisted he come off the internet or forced him to do things that he simply couldn't do at the height of the crisis.

Your friends mental health will be suffering too. I have PTSD from watching my 10/11 year old try to kill himself and the judgment of others that this was down to my poor parenting.

@lifeturnsonadime

I don’t think it’s bad behaviour. If you read my original post, you’d see that the child has odd behaviour and struggles with social relationships. She has withdrawn from school and I understand why.

I believe the school is at fault for withdrawing support. I’m worried they’re not involved. Worried she’s on her own In this.

I’m not suggesting the girl needs to get straight back to school. I’m worried her mental health is deteriorating in her isolated circumstances. And asking for advice and insights. She actually told my daughter that she’s not depressed… but her mother keeps telling her she is.

You seem determined to push the point that absolutely all parents are doing right by their kids and concerned outsiders are merely meddling because they don’t understand if they haven’t been there. Would you apply that logic to every child safeguarding case? Clearly that doesn’t always work.

And you also seem determined to insist I came on here to be judgemental. Whereas I wanted to check if there’s anything I should be doing as a responsible friend who’s genuinely worried.

Anyway, I am reading everyone’s responses and thanks for sharing your experiences.

Would you apply that logic to every child safeguarding case? Clearly that doesn’t always work

This child is known to both the school and CAMHS both of which look out for safeguarding issues with parents.

In that situation there isn't really anyone further to flag to.

I'm not responding to your safeguarding concerns, it is your thinking that her being in her room and not engaging is a sign of poor parenting. I'm not the only person on this thread who have pointed out that it is not.

Anyway I'll bow out.

Your experience sounds totally gruelling and great to hear your son is recovering. I've learned something from your posts, even if you've been a bit tetchy with me 

As others have said, my only success as a parent of a child a bit further down this path, is that she is still alive at the time of posting.

Whilst I am trying to concede that you mean well, I feel furiously angry at you.

My experience is very similar to those already posted so I won't elaborate but will just say that we have experienced the same judgements from friends and family as you express and consequently have become more and more isolated. We are going through hell, we have tried everything. Nothing helps if the young person cannot engage. CAMHS, social services and school are shit beyond belief. Of course there are safeguarding concerns - but guess what -there isn't any help if the child can't (and it is can't not won't) engage with the piss poor offerings)

What we need is love and support without judgement. If you cannot offer that then leave the poor woman alone she has enough to cope with.

@WheatShreds

You are doing a great job.

Please don't be furious with me, I've learned from all these posts, which is why I came on here in the first place.

I've offered my friend nothing but support and not a single judgmental word. I want to help her daughter, not make things worse... as I said at the outset. I've worried that I should be doing/saying something because I'm party to info (via my daughter) that my friend doesn't have.

Sorry about your situation. It sounds so hard and I really wish you well.

Thank you.
Sorry - very sensitive.

@RunicWords

You are judging. You don't understand. Unless you have had to deal with this scenario you will never understand.

It sounds like you get your friend to confide in you & then you have come on her basically saying she isn't doing her job as a parent properly.

You can't manhandle a 13yo out of their room - nor can you force a professional into their safe space.

You're being unkind about the child and the mother.

Not without reason. 💐

Really?

I said I was worried because her mother didn't seem to have any idea that her daughter was staying up half the night.
Worried because although she tells my daughter she's not depressed, her mum tells her she is.
And worried because she was no longer on the radar of school or CAHMS.

Where did I say I expected her mum to force her out? I may have said I worried the mother seemed passive about the situation. But you see, I have known her a long while and I have observed her being passive in other situations.

I came on here for advice because I'm genuinely concerned about a young person's future. I never pretended to have experience of the situation myself. Isn't that what these forums are for? I was willing to listen to what people had to say and learn from that. I didn't expect people to start labelling me as judgmental and nitpicking about using the wrong terminology.

Are you saying that if you don't have experience of a situation, you're not allowed to be concerned about someone else's situation? Or that ALL parents with school-refusing kids are doing the best for their kids? Doesn't make sense, does it?

I can't very well voice my concerns to my friend, can I? Or question her decisions to her face. And I have deliberately not spoken to mutual friends about it because I don't want to break her confidence or speak behind her back. Do you really think I deliberately gained her confidence so I could enjoy talking on the internet about her? How bizarre. (I hardly ever post on Mumsnet, or any other forum).

Read back what you wrote. If anyone is judging here, it is you.

Read back what you wrote. If anyone is judging here, it is you.

Jesus , read the room.

No one else is allowed in the room, are they? Go on, slam the door and carry on pretending you know my motives better than I do.

If you are concerned about the child just get on with it then and contact the police or social services rather than putting this family down and ignoring all of us on here who say it will likely make matters worse for the family.

You are coming across as smug and superior and don't even pretend to be a friend of that poor woman and her child.

Holy fuck, what am I reading?! This child has severe MH issues, possible NDs, CAMHS etc aren’t fit for purpose, there is zero support for the parents available, and you’re just.. Posting here, using these words and tone.

Your poor friend.

Having had to keep my ASD suicidal then 10YO alive myself, which meant treating her like a newborn, every day house hold objects would become self harm weapons in her hands, whilst trying to work and look after my other two DDs, taking medications/going to my appointments for my own long standing CPTSD, I am really fucking glad that my closest friends are like my sisters, like Aunts to my children and would happily stay over at my house, sitting in my child’s bedroom with me all night, or take over entirely so I could try and get some sleep, take my other children out to do things that their sister couldn’t do at that point, taken my unwell child out for a long walk to give me time with my other children, and were NOT you.!