Munchausens

[Prettypussy]

If I suspect someone I know has Munchausens, and possibly munchausens-by proxy, who should I tell? I would want to do this anonymously.

Nowhere near enough context there.

I don’t think this is as uncommon as you might think sadly. I know of 2 very strong candidates. If a child involved flag to school?

I imagine social services would be the place to go.

Mbp is 's a safeguarding issue so alert the safeguarding lead at any organisation involved with the family. Also write to the person's GP. Then don't do anything else. Remember that you have absolutely zero right to receive updates about any investigations asit is none of your business to hear any personal information

Don't want to give too much context as might be identifying but child is college age but still vulnerable because this has been going on their whole life- just seems to be getting worse lately as now no independence like most kids their age due mothers 'illness' and their own supposed issues.

Contact safe guarding at College and be clear about your concerns. Then I agree with stepping back. You may or may not be right. The one person I have known who I suspected was like this was also very secretive and manipulative so I was never convinced anyone else would 'see' it.

Unless you know the child’s full medical history and spend huge amounts of time with them how could you possibly know if this is munchausens by proxy or not ?

Beware of the severe trauma and damage you could cause an innocent family.

If you’re close enough to suspect this I assume you’re close enough to offer supper ? Maybe that would be the place to start and it may actually put your mind at rest if you see that there are genuine conditions. If you’re only getting a snapshot of someone’s life you could make a huge error here and cause harm. MSBP is incredibly rare it’s more likely there are genuine needs

Support

I don’t think offering supper would be much use !

Some conditions are genetic is there a chance that is why both mother and child have illnesses ? You really need to get the full picture here - people can and do lose their children over false accusations of MSBP or Fabricated or induced illness. It can tear families apart and a lot of the time the needs and conditions are genuine (often things like ASD, feeding or gastro issues, ME, PoTs, allergies, EDS).

If you have to have people's full medical history before being able to report suspicionss then won't cases of abuse will fall through the net?

I'm reasonably close to this family and have known them for a lot of years now, the closer I have got, the more suspicious I have become. I have always tried to be sympathetic to all the illnesses and constant talking about them but the more I know her the less I believe her. I'm not sure how I would support someone who bases their lives on deceiving even her own close family and doctors- it seems out my sphere of skills and needs professional intervention. Especially as I believe she's now trying to prevent her child going to the university of thier choice so she can keep them at home. She is very controlling and suffers from anxiety, I think she does it to make her seem special and the centre of attention and at the same time stop her from doing things she thinks are risky. She has always got evidence and a lot of research done into different conditions she could have and they are always ones where there isn't a test for them, just symptoms.

I feel for you OP.
I also think you are definitely doing the right thing. We have had this in my family for two decades and it will have life long effects on all children.

The mum had a genuine condition from birth. A complex club foot, which required multiple operations. These took years . Until all finally sorted around age 12. However up to this date her medical condition garnered a lot of attention from her family members.

Move on to her marriage and kids. It began in pregnancy . Constantly at the hospital with 'issues' . Baby perfectly fine. 3 more babies. These kids had the most unbelievable luck with their health. Constant and increasingly bizarre illnesses. It will be impossible to list them all but the end result was hugely disruptive schooling to the extent that she eventually moved them all to home Ed (but didn't home educate at all) .
The mother hasn't worked for years as 'super anxious' .. and all the kids are now out of school, unemployed and unemployable. They all have various 'anxieties' that prevent them moving forward. Mother tells them they 'need to be at home to be sure they are safe'

There is nothing wrong with any of the 'kids' . They are just fucked up by a parent who has spent 20 years telling them they were ill.

Please contact the school safeguarding staff with your concerns as soon as possible.

Not sure on this one. If the DC is old enough to go to Uni then organisations like the NSPCC are probably out.

What are the conditions? If you can’t say outright are they any of the ones I listed that are often ‘red flags’ for munchausens/FII?

You have to be so careful with this as families are ripped apart by these accusations and true MSBP is so SO rare.

Rather than jumping in and reporting hastily can you try to actually support this family - this may give you more insight then you can either report or you may feel you don’t need to. Do you ever have an opportunity to speak to her dd?

This would depend on the conditions - it’s up till 25 if someone is vulnerable dependent on their diagnosis / needs

You sound like you have some experience of this condition- what do you mean by a red flag- do you mean the conditions you stated mean it's a red flag that it's not Mubchausens or that it is?

MBP isn't a term used anymore.

www.nhs.uk/mental-health/conditions/fabricated-or-induced-illness/overview/

There is such a sensitivity to this on MN - I have posted about a close situation to me three times over the course of 20 years and had my arse handed to me every time accusing me of being a troll and worse. So good luck op getting people to answer you sensitively and appropriately (although some already have thank goodness).

My SIL who works closely in safeguarding within an education setting says it’s very common - the staff have at least one child in every cohort who is vulnerable to MBP - they know the parents and the illogical, negligent things they ask of the school to facilitate what is essentially neglect of the child’s well-being - at worst it’s abuse. Unfortunately agencies are slow to meaningfully respond and these children leave school having already been significantly damaged. Such a shame.

It may be worth directing your SIL to the recent guidance on FII for the basw by Independent social worker Cathie Long. It’s a very difficult area and true cases are rare but social workers/schools/medical professionals cast the net wide to catch those few rare cases (which yes, are serious) but in the process they catch many many innocent families

I'm really not sure how I can support this family any more than I already do. The mum considers me a close friend, which is difficult because the feeling isn't mutual. The more I have got to know her over the years the more I dislike her, and the rest of my family hate spending time with her. I keep involved in order to give the child some kind of normality- but it's difficult. They are rarely unsupervised- and don't really see friends without mum as a chaperone, they're not allowed sleepovers- even with grandparents or close family, they're not allowed to make many decisions for themselves and are very immature and not independent at all.

I know her quite well which is why I am quite sure she's faking. It's hard to support someone you think is lying.

Mum messages me almost daily with complaints about how ill she is. However, it never stops her accepting social invitations- think whole days shopping, drinking prosecco, the races, long day trips and walks. If questioned about this she will say she powers through for the sake of others and then will message the following day to say how she's suffering for it now. Her latest illness has coincided nicely with preventing the child going out all summer because they have needed to stay home to look after her and help with housework etc. Yet it hasn't stopped their family days out- she's "struggled but managed to get out for family day trips", but child just not been able to go out by herself.

I don't think the problem extends to actually causing physical illness, it's more psychological- convincing them she is ill and limiting independence. Mum has a wide medical knowledge from researching on the internet- printing of information about conditions she might have and presenting these to the doctor and asking for tests- when questioned she always says tests were negative so she has to do more research for more tests. Constant talk about how the doctors can't get to the bottom of her symptoms and how she must have something very rare.

“Mum messages me almost daily with complaints about how ill she is. However, it never stops her accepting social invitations- think whole days shopping, drinking prosecco, the races, long day trips and walks.”

Yep this is similar to my situation. Thankfully no children involved but so hard to know how to navigate. As I said before, I have asked for advice on MN several times but each time got accused of lying. I think it’s because my friend alleges to have cancer which upsets people (there have also been ‘brain tumours’ along the way… no clear evidence of any of it other than her shaving her head and miraculously cured once a holiday to Florida pops up!) I’m hoping you get some good advice.

This is uncomfortable reading, as I was in a similar situation, and also stayed 'friends' partly because I was concerned for the well-being of her child. However, once I stepped back and realised that no I was being extremely inauthentic as I just didn't like her any not, and also that my friend like yours was also fully capable of doing things, it was just that she wanted full control of everything I realised I was just very, very tired of 'being there' for her. She didn't think she was anxious, she thought she was 'right' and that was just exhausting to be around. So I walked away. I hope I was wrong and I misjudged the whole situation but something within me felt that she was lying almost constantly and constantly moving goal posts to suit herself. I wish her child all the best, and that she rebels and gets the hell out of there as soon as she can.

Oh god this was my mother, still is tbh

I was a carer to her from about 13, I did all the housework, the cooking, the cleaning, my dad would rarely help because he thought my mum should do it, but she was abusive as well so left me in a position where I had to do it

She wouldn't have the energy to cook, but if I did it a tiny bit wrong she would have the energy to yell and rant and scream for hours.

There was never enough energy for her to facilitate me having any kind of life outside of school (we were rural so I couldn't do it by myself), but there was plenty of energy for her to have a social life.

If it wasn't for some excellent friends who would invite me around their houses lots (she would let me go because she didn't want to look bad in front of people, but I would be expected to do lots of extra chores to 'pay' for it when I got back) I don't know how I would have coped.

She was constantly taking me to homeopaths and other alternative medicine people to diagnose me with random health conditions, none of which I actually had, but refused to take me to the GP for an inhaler for my actual asthma (I think she didn't want me to see a Dr at all).

She still has 'health problems' as and when she needs them and uses her anxiety to try to control everything, from whether we are 'allowed' pets to where she thinks we should go on holiday. I grey rock most of the time and sometimes wonder why I don't go NC.

I was frustrated by it all though OP and so I was driven to do well at school and leave home the moment I could for uni. If this persons child is too brainwashed by it all it might be harder to unmesh them from her life.

@Owlsinmybedroom Yes, the homeopathic medicine obsession rings true here as well- when they get no joy from the doctor they try alternative diagnoses- seeing homeopaths and taking lots of supplements and remedies. The latest is diagnosing the child with Irlens (even though they have never had any issues with reading, are extremely high achieving academically and an avid reader- which isn't my experience of a child with Irlens- if it even exists) I even think it's possible the child might be at the stage where they are colluding with the mother and faking the reading difficulty in the tests to get the glasses and the attention they will get at school.