Help without Anti Depressants

[SugarHut]

I'd really like some (kind,helpful) advice please, as I've seen some very harsh and condescending things written where people seem to genuinely be seeking help.

I have a 5yr old boy, and being very honest, I've never really even liked him...I feel like if I could press a button and it would take me back to never have fallen pregnant then I would press it like a shot. I make myself be as good a mother as I can, I hug him and tell him I love him, but I feel nothing. I don't feel repulsion, or hatred, but I feel nothing towards him. It makes me so sad...mainly for him, although I feel I hide it well and he's none the wiser. I long for the 2 days a week my mother has him when I can be me. I'm not a drippy "woe is me" failure, I'm a very strong woman, he's in private school, I have a very good job, which is not even very demanding...on the outside, I look like I have it made....but I wanted a girl so very badly, and every day I feel disappointed.

He's very smart, he gets outstanding reports, his behaviour is excellent, they are talking about putting him up a year in school...all things other parents tell me are amazing. On the outside I smile and gush and agree...on the inside I couldn't care less. I hate it.

Does this sound like depression? I can't bring myself to take any medication, so please don't advise me too. And please don't lecture me for "you shouldn't have had a child if you only wanted a girl" yes I did...but trust me if I knew I'd be this permanently disengaged and hate it to the extremes I do, then I would not have had him and saved us both. No pointless battering me for a decision I can not reverse, I feel bad enough as it is.

I look at other children at the school, and if I look at one of his little girl friends, I imagine it was my child and I get overwhelmed with these warm loving feelings, I want to pick her up and cuddle her, take her shopping, brush her hair, make cakes with her, read stories with her, I feel overwhelming pride and love even though it's a random child, then I look at him and want to cry. I am looking at him right now, and I picture him being a girl and I feel like there is so much love in me for a girl and he's just this child in my house that I don't even feel related to that's ruined my life.

What do I do??? Are there any non medication routes that actually work if I am depressed? Does it even sound like depression? I know these feelings aren't normal, and I know it shouldn't have taken me 5 years to say something about it. But anyone who has had a remotely similar experience please help me. x x x

[orangeandemons]

Still can't find it...

[Shakey1500]

Oranges C+P'd My own dad, my mother left when I was 18wks old (I've met him a few times and I see why, I was an accident), shortly after, met my stepfather...who is Dad. I've never thought of him as not my real dad...he's just Dad. And he's been consistent, supportive, wonderful smile So I do see where the question came from, but no "daddy issues" as such to report.

[orangeandemons]

Hmmm so there is negativity towards males somewhere in your family. Even if not talked about or discussed .

[BlackSwan]

You may want to read up on narcissistic personality disorder. And the concept of a 'golden child'. In this case, perhaps the golden child is the daughter whose existence is just out of reach. Which means the son can only be, the scapegoat...

[working9while5]

I was also very struck by the post about being a tomboy when younger and then becoming very girly as an adolescent and strengthening your own identity and how this led into the adult relationship with your mum.

I am going to talk about derived relationships here again.

Basically, the essence of who we believe ourselves to be is about the connections we make between ideas. Everyone has a slightly different learning history when it comes to ideas - so for example, if I hear the word "lemon" I almost always remember lemon picking in Tuscany but this is clearly not going to be an association for very many people.

Essentially somewhere along the line you developed a framework of associations that co-ordinated "numbness" and "boy child"... a framework in which having a girl child = good/acceptable and having a boy child = bad/unacceptable.

The nature of the human mind and of language is that a) these connections become your reality and b) your mind will spin all sorts of stories and provide all sorts of "logic" to enable you to avoid what has been judged to be bad (all the feelings, thoughts and ideas associated with a boy child).

We all have a tendency as human beings to fuse with our thoughts - we can salivate when we think of favourite foods and our heart will race when reading a frightening story etc. You have fused deeply with the idea that a boy child is unacceptable.

Yet beyond your mind which has fused with this idea and brings you suffering, there is a YOU that is beyond that and is pulling at your attention, letting you know that this isn't right... there's something wrong here.. there's something you need to pay attention to.

That is what you need the help for. I really hope you find someone who can be non-judgemental in supporting you in real life.

[orangeandemons]

But surely if you don't like boys, you don't like men either?

[SugarHut]

Shakey, I know, I feel like Working9 needs to invoice me....

I should also point out that I am very girly. Very very. But do I love deep sea fishing, will spend equal days on hols posing around the pool as I would sweating and hoisting a marlin in out at sea. Fishing out in the depths is one of my favourite things. If I think about taking my son, I don't think about him maybe enjoying it and us doing something together, I think great, the one thing I love doing more than anything and I've got to sit and waste my time showing him how to do it. I visualise taking my daughter, and I see us hanging off the side of the boat, pointing out turtles, catching our first fish together. I see the excitement in her face as she sees the first thing she catches, I can't even be bothered to imagine what he'd be like. I can feel how much I don't care one bit. This is a prime example of how everything is.

x x x

[SugarHut]

Orange...most of my friends are male. I get a lot of female jealousy and funnily enough I don't like a lot of women as they hate me for "having it all" and it sucks. She's a model, but we can't call her pretty but dumb because she's also a qualified accountant with a law degree. Well fuck, we'll just hate her. Not to her face though, that would require a spine. My female friends are mainly in the same industry...because we are genuinely hated by most women, so we become very close knit together. In the same way that men are often jealous of the "rich guy" and dislike without knowing the first thing about him. So yes, I like men, they are usually funnier, waaaaaaaay less bitchy, more matter of fact.

x x x

[working9while5]

I promise I'm not judging you.. at least not any more than any person can not judge another. It is the nature of language and the human mind to be evaluative so to some extent, that is an inevitable byproduct of human interaction even if we try to be careful and mindful.

"Yes, we do definitely take on defined roles, but I just can't accept that the massive problems I have are as simple as that...I would have been able to address that myself, whereas I have no idea what the hell is wrong with me."

I guess I would say don't underestimate the power of the connections in your mind. It is really powerful stuff, it is the very stuff of reality in some ways. The stuff I am talking about is based on a behavioural model of the human mind called Relational Frame Theory which is the theory underpinning a school of therapy called Acceptance and Commitment Therapy and it has really good support for a wide range of human difficulties.

It is also the case that the mind tends to tie itself up in knots and overcomplicate the most simplest of things when it comes to suffering. That is true for each and every one of us... so even if it were simple once, it becomes more and more elaborate as you try to apply your natural faculty for problem solving to a feeling that just can't be solved.

Acceptance and Commitment Therapy is based on this notion that we ALL as a function of being normal human beings get trapped to some extent in "webs of words" which we treat as real. This is how we navigate the world. It doesn't really matter what your personal frameworks are as long as they are workable within your life, bringing you vitality in the moment. Of course, that's not fully true for you right now. So, the theory goes, in your mind there is a framework in which men are somehow unacceptable or not lovable. Yet you are not satisfied with this construction of reality because you are suffering because of it.. it's not a workable belief for you because you want to keep him safe from suicide, you don't want him to feel unwanted, you don't wish him any ill will. You just can't summon up love for him.

So in your words, I am reading:

• there is pain about the girl child you don't have
  
• there is pain about having a boy child
  

You have fused deeply with the belief that both of these are unacceptable to the extent it is hurting you badly.

In terms of the question about boys.. can you remember a time in your life you felt differently about boys?

What do you think a mother who loved boys would wish for if they were the mother of your son? Would it be different to what you would wish for with a girl?

[working9while5]

Sorry x-post. Boy child I guess.
Also am I reading correctly that you didn't want a boy child ever? Did you consider terminating the pregnancy after you got the news?

[orangeandemons]

Also, you may one day have a daughter and find out she is nothing like you expected. Boy, was my daughter a wake up call! I too longed for a daughter... I love ds and dd the same, but ds is much much easier to be with and spend time with. He also loves buying clothes, which dd hates..

[OliviaMMumsnet]

Erm Just a reminder of our talk guidelines
Thanks

[SugarHut]

Working9, yes about the boy child, yes about the girl child. And yes about not wanting any ill, or unwanted feelings etc.

Amazingly yes, I did once feel differently. I was married from 20 through to 21 (too young, wouldn't be told, in a nutshell) and he was in the forces, I found my old letters to him that he had kept in a box the other day, and one of them said how much I couldn't wait to give him a son. I actually just laughed and chucked it away, but in fairness I really meant it at the time. Weirdly enough, this dog I'm getting for him, I only want a boy.

I don't understand the wish for question... wish for in what respect? Wish for out of life?

Yes for as long as I remember I never ever wanted a boy. I couldn't terminate, not at that far gone, not when you can feel it buggering about and alive and moving. If I had got the news earlier on and knowing what I know now, without a doubt the pregnancy would have been terminated.

x x x

[SugarHut]

Do you really love them the same orange???? Really???? You wanted a daughter and you genuinely mean you love them equally.... if you are likening yourself to my situation, there is no way you could make that statement....

x x x

[working9while5]

Yes, wish for out of life... both in the moment and in the long term. Again, I'm not talking here about material possessions or specific activities but the sort of long term stuff like health, happiness.. are there any specifics for you? For example one for my boys is that they develop a sense of compassion for others or that they have lots of opportunities for play and laughter.

Do you find it hard to conceptualise those sorts of wishes for any child? A similar question I would have been asked would be, what sort of values do you think a loving and caring mother would have for herself as well as her children?

Any idea of when your feelings about a boy child changed? That might be very important to reflect on.

[PicardyThird]

I've been thinking about this thread, and one thing that has come back to me, OP, is how good your boy is.

It has occurred to me that quite possibly he is so good because he knows, on some level, and is trying desperately to win your approval.

I am full of admiration for working and others who are helping you think through this in admirable and, I believe, necessary detail. I think my role here has to be a different one. I think I want to be extremely blunt (but hopefully not rude or insulting) and say that, OP, if you don't work on this and work on it seriously and work on it soon - and posting on this thread is an excellent start, but it won't be enough - your boy would be better off being brought up by someone else. I mean fostered/adopted, by someone who really wants him.

The struggle to please you could very well turn around completely as he gets older, into a despairing realisation that, as nothing he does can really make you love him, he may as well be as 'bad' as he possibly can.

[TwasBrillig]

I agree picardy. My parents didn't really want me and my self esteem is shot to pieces, has had long term effects on life, career, friendships etc (in spite of being academically bright, oxbridge etc.) You need to address this. Wanting not to have had a boy and wanting things to be different won't make it go away. Good luck.

[harrap]

Apologies if this has already been mentioned, I haven't had time to read through all of the posts and it looks like discussion has moved on a bit since a started reading last night but might the Anna Freud Centre be a good place to look for help with this?

As you probably know they do a lot of work around bonding and attachment and I should imagine they have pretty er how can I put it..."intellectually robust" therapists.

[working9while5]

Harrap I think that is a really great suggestion, Sugar you should listen to her. You need expert help.

[orangeandemons]

I love them both equally but not in the same way. I think you maybe ought to try and realise that they give something back. Does your ds ever tell you he loves you? How does that make you feel?

The older they get the more they give too. I prefer the company of ds19 as he is just so loveable and kind to dd7 who is very hard work. I love them both more than my life though

[SugarHut]

Working9, I would want any child (mine or not) to he happy, feel safe, enjoy life. Perhaps with a girl, I see how easy my life has been all down to what I have been able to do as a woman, and would love to give that life to another female, teach her, watch her grow. With a boy, I think because in my head I don't have much interest or understanding of what they become, I have no attachment or feeling in growing and nurturing him now.

I have no idea when my feelings towards having a boy changed, I just know that from talking about trying for a baby, all I was having was a girl, boys were almost a ridiculous thing to mention, it was not even spoken of that a boy would turn up.

Picardy, you're right, in one breath I do think, why not let someone who would make him their world have him. In the other I think about how ruined my life would be to know my mother gave me away, I would not wish that on my worst enemy. I have to insist (again) that he is not seeking approval, his personality and manners and intelligence is replicated with every child in our family. It is the way the all of them have been raised, he's not desperate to please, the way he is, is natural to him. He is good, better than good, and I do recognise how other people would give their right arm for a child like him, or any of my cousin's children, when we take them out, the comments we get from strangers every time are astounding. The difference is, I nod and agree and harp on about how lucky I am to be blessed with this child to them, when inside I feel nothing whatsoever.

Twas, may I ask, how did you know you were not wanted? This is my major argument as to why I would never give him away, even if one day he does detect any of these feelings, he could take the tiniest comfort from thinking he was never unwanted enough for me to give him away.

Harrap, I've never heard of Anna Freud, but will look it up now.....

Orange, I tell him I love him all the time. He has occasionally said it first. I don't even get the tiniest stirring, in fact it's more "I love you mummy" and I think you poor poor child.

x x x