Help without Anti Depressants

[SugarHut]

I'd really like some (kind,helpful) advice please, as I've seen some very harsh and condescending things written where people seem to genuinely be seeking help.

I have a 5yr old boy, and being very honest, I've never really even liked him...I feel like if I could press a button and it would take me back to never have fallen pregnant then I would press it like a shot. I make myself be as good a mother as I can, I hug him and tell him I love him, but I feel nothing. I don't feel repulsion, or hatred, but I feel nothing towards him. It makes me so sad...mainly for him, although I feel I hide it well and he's none the wiser. I long for the 2 days a week my mother has him when I can be me. I'm not a drippy "woe is me" failure, I'm a very strong woman, he's in private school, I have a very good job, which is not even very demanding...on the outside, I look like I have it made....but I wanted a girl so very badly, and every day I feel disappointed.

He's very smart, he gets outstanding reports, his behaviour is excellent, they are talking about putting him up a year in school...all things other parents tell me are amazing. On the outside I smile and gush and agree...on the inside I couldn't care less. I hate it.

Does this sound like depression? I can't bring myself to take any medication, so please don't advise me too. And please don't lecture me for "you shouldn't have had a child if you only wanted a girl" yes I did...but trust me if I knew I'd be this permanently disengaged and hate it to the extremes I do, then I would not have had him and saved us both. No pointless battering me for a decision I can not reverse, I feel bad enough as it is.

I look at other children at the school, and if I look at one of his little girl friends, I imagine it was my child and I get overwhelmed with these warm loving feelings, I want to pick her up and cuddle her, take her shopping, brush her hair, make cakes with her, read stories with her, I feel overwhelming pride and love even though it's a random child, then I look at him and want to cry. I am looking at him right now, and I picture him being a girl and I feel like there is so much love in me for a girl and he's just this child in my house that I don't even feel related to that's ruined my life.

What do I do??? Are there any non medication routes that actually work if I am depressed? Does it even sound like depression? I know these feelings aren't normal, and I know it shouldn't have taken me 5 years to say something about it. But anyone who has had a remotely similar experience please help me. x x x

SugarHut I have read all the thread. Can I also ask what your relationships with other people are like and whether you feel a connection with them?

I would also like to say that I thought your comments to BlackSwan were worded very harshly. I was surprised reading your response as in your OP you specify that you would like some kind, helpful advice as you'd read some harsh and condescending things written, yet your response (in my opinion) was spectacularly condescending.

I don't think there was anything remiss with what BlackSwan said.

OP, can I just ask what you expected when you became a mother? Because with me I sure as hell didn't give birth and then became instantly infatuated with my DD. I didn't bond with her until she was 7 months old and until then I was really going through the motions. But I kept reaching out and trying again and again and then suddenly I felt something and it's been great.

Whilst I was pregnant, I was very apprehensive about the fact that I would have a boy but when I thought about it I realised that all the things I wanted to share with a girl, I could also share with a boy so it really didn't matter what sex they were.

And you know what? Boys need and like to be cuddled too, you can take them shopping and brush their hair, make cakes with them and read stories with them. Being a boy doesn't mean that they can't do and won't like doing these things.

I think you have over-idealised the idea of having a girl. As others have said, having a girl does not mean that they will instantly like all the things that you would like. That's like saying that ALL women like the same things because they are the same sex and that simply isn't true.

I'll try and stick to the point here. Talking is good and you need to do lots of it to the right people starting with your GP.

I think you are depressed in that you say you have no feelings towards your son. When I was depressed I had a sense of being separate from people around me, as if I were acting a part or some days just going through the motions. There is often an absence of feeling with depression, a general numbness which in your case manifests itself in your relationship with your son.

I do think if you really want to get closer to your son you will have to be prepared to give everything a try and keep an open mind.

I wish you well and hope things start to change for the better for you.

OP I think counselling could definitely help you. I don't think the standard NHS 6 week course of CBT is going to cut it though so it would probably be helpful if you could manage to share some of the details with your GP.

You haven't mentioned your father at all - where does he fit into the picture?

Just a thought as you're not keen on discussing your issues with your gp- you could check whether there are counselling services in your area you can self refer to (there are in a lot of places, I can easily find my local service by googling "self refer counselling ".

It would be good to talk to your gp about it if you can face it though. They might have other helpful suggestions.

So many comments, but ignoring the simple and ill educated (princess, self declarations of hitting nerves, thinking that are spot on is just laughable when they clearly have no clue...), and focusing on what is actually proving to be really helpful from the rest of you, and I really mean that, this is helping me so much to pluck up the courage to go to a professional...here goes.....

I didn't really have any kind of expectations from being a mother. For the first few months, I bought everything I could think of, researched all the best foods to be eating, spent ages designing the nursery, every magazine under the sun, books from the library, even damn pregnancy yoga...I was so excited and happy. I found out at 20 weeks he was a boy. Cried solidly for about 2 months in private. From then I was not interested. I bought only what I needed and no interest in what I saw as "wasting" a penny on a child I had no feeling for. I went to no pre-birth classes, because I honestly didn't care to, I felt like I couldn't even be bothered to learn about the child, or sit with a load of other mothers listening to them gush about their perfect babies to be. The birth, was a C-section, fully planned, rather relaxed...he was taken out, and I did nothing, didn't cry, didn't ask to see him, he just got taken off while they do whatever it is (weigh them? heel prick test?) then I was being stitched up, so they said shall we dress him, I said fine, so the first time I saw him, he was in a little white suit in a plastic box next to me. No emotion, just a great deal of disappointment as I suppose the reality of, I've actually got a boy for the rest of my life, hit me. I've thrown away all of his photos from up to 8 months because I look so disappointed in all of them I never want him to see that. I will tell him they were lost when our study had a water leak.

I think those of you are right, saying that I have over idealised "my girl" in my head. I think when your imagination has no limitations, you probably do create perfection however unlikely the reality might be. Yes, she could be a little moo bag, or a total pain in other ways. I have a friend who brings hers round occasionally, she's a nightmare, no manners, rather destructive, bossy...whereas mine is an angel in comparison. I would still swap them in a heartbeat. I would take the most difficult girl ever over a boy. Any time. Because I would care so much and invest all of my time into nurturing and developing, and to be honest, no child of mine would ever be too bad (age relative), I'm far too old school and strict. All the children in our family are pretty much like my son, it's not him acting like and ideal child or desperate to please, they all do that, I was like that as a child, it's the way we've been raised.

This is the other problem, I am too scared to have another child, in case I do have a girl, because then I feel I will actually turn my indifference towards my son into actual dislike and resentment for "wasting" my time and money which I would want all to go onto my daughter. I often wonder how much it would affect him as an adult if I just gave him to my mother and father now. He's the only grandchild, they beyond adore him. Then I think if I have another one and it's a boy then they can just entertain each other and I won't have to bother with either and maybe I'll be much happier, and importantly so would they.

I do direct a lot of anger, perhaps not the right word, maybe bitterness in my head towards him, sometime I think, if you hadn't of been a stupid boy, I wouldn't have to get fat and pregnant again, I wouldn't have to have another child when I only ever wanted one, I wouldn't have to waste so much money on your education when I don't care what you become or want to be. Think of all the holidays, and travelling, and experiences my daughter would miss out on because you drain on my money and time, but if you had been a girl, you would be having the fabulous life I would want to give you and could easily support.

My own dad, my mother left when I was 18wks old (I've met him a few times and I see why, I was an accident), shortly after, met my stepfather...who is Dad. I've never thought of him as not my real dad...he's just Dad. And he's been consistent, supportive, wonderful :) So I do see where the question came from, but no "daddy issues" as such to report.

May I ask if anyone on here has any experience of boarding schools? Someone suggested this to me, and I wonder if it could be a great step forward..I know they won't take until age 7...but if I knew 80% of the time he was in a good environment, guaranteed out of my hair, I'd become happier, and maybe even get to the point where I look forward to seeing him during the holidays?

Ok....going to phone the GP right now. Wish me luck.

x x x

Well. All booked for next Friday. Thought I'd feel quite positive and in control....actually feel rather intimidated. Still, if the alterative is another 13 years like this, I know I'm doing the right thing. x x x

OP, it sounds as though your DS never stood a chance in your affections from what I've read here. And I do wonder why you have put so much importance on sex.

What is it specifically about having a girl do you believe would be different than having a boy? What is it you can do with a girl that you can't with a boy because I am trying to understand and don't quite get why there is such a big difference in your head.

Sugar, it's great that you've made that step and called the doctor. What you can do now, maybe, is put a lot of the points you've made on here into one doc and print it out to take with you.

I'm obviously not a MH professional, but I think a lot of your unhappiness is coming from anger and defensiveness. And you have worked hard to make a materially pleasant life for yourself, so it's no surprise you get angry when mental health issues which are not the result of your own doing come knocking. It seems like you've been able to control what happens in your life to some extent, with hard work and determination. The sex of your child and mental health are not things you can necessarily control on your own, so I think that's frightened you.

Do remember people posting here have probably come to the MH board because they're suffering in some way themselves. If other posters give advice you don't agree with, just let it go. Don't get into arguments, because it does nobody any good, and there's a lot of kindness and support on here. I think the way you've reacted seems to be tied up with issues of not having control over certain things and feeling like your usual role of being a clever, successful, hard-working woman suddenly throwing up challenges you can't face. Everyone here wants to help. Nobody thinks any less of you for not being 'strong.'

Thanks Estelle, what you write makes a lot of sense. You "get" exactly what I'm saying. It's not that I don't agree with other's opinions, everyone has one, and they're all different...it's when someone clearly doesn't comprehend what has been said, (but will argue black is blue that they do) and then tries to tell me what should I mean as if I'm not sure of that myself, and becomes slightly superior/preachy...I don't have a lot of patience for that.
You are also right, I've worked hard and have some wonderful material things in my life, but they are complemented by many more wonderful immaterial things, family, friends...which is what makes me happiest. I don't feel out of control of my feelings...I don't find them out of control, or scared by them, but perhaps this is because I've been like this for the last 5 and half years and it's just become my normality now. Perhaps if I start to improve with the counselling I will be able to look back at this and reflect on how bizarre my brain was once upon a time....I hope so.
Possibly the lack of control over the sex of my child is something for me to think about. I'm not spoilt, or a diva, but I can pretty much say everything in my life has always worked out rather well for me, almost effortlessly...and that sounds idiotically smug...it's not my intention to sound that way, it's just how it's been....so I suppose, in a stupid way, I wanted a girl, everything always goes right for me, it didn't even seem possible when a boy was the last thing I would want, that I would get dealt that hand. Maybe that is spoilt and selfish. It probably is, my brain is a lot of weird things, they're probably just a fraction of the problem.
I think I struggle because there is NOTHING I can do about it. I'm very "if you don't like it, stop moping and fix it" your child is fat? put it on a diet, play more games with them. you don't like your nose? have a nose job. you feel like you don't have many friends? join some local classes. You hate the sex of your child..... well you're kind of stuck with that.

It's not that I want a dippy princess to throw into beauty pageants, yes, my life is very beauty orientated, and that is 99% of my interest...but as a child, I refused dolls and had transformers, I would be perfectly happy with a tomboy, I wouldn't care if she was like Jordan or Janet Street Porter, I just want a girl and feel trapped for the rest of my life with this boy.
I do recognise at least how unfair and irrational I am, I just can't help the way I feel. He's so clever, he's a year ahead, he's superbly mannered, he is popular at school, ok at sports. Virtually a textbook perfect child. I think to myself, Christ, what is wrong with you, what more does the boy have to do for you to care just one tiny bit? But I don't, he's come home with his mid term reports today, straight 1s (grade A for 6 year olds, and he's only 4 still, 5 in a few days) and I skipped through it and chucked in in his school folder with the rest. I don't care. I don't feel proud, I just expect it of him, check everything says it's grade 1 then file it away. Haven't even read the comments. I grab them and read them on the way to parents evenings so I seem clued up. Lord only knows what kind of situation we'd be in if he was a problem child, I shudder to think.
Thank you for all your support guys, I have to say, writing a lot of this has been a tearful business, but I do feel like I'm experiencing a gradual release, with the more I get out in the open. Whether it's a release of stress, guilt, just the ability to share, I don't know, but it's definitely helping, and thank you all x x x

Black swan didn't deserve one barrel let alone both, so perhaps therein lies the problem, it's not all about you.

I do feel some sympathy, pity even, I do think you need therapy, I do think you need help. I will not demonise you, I do think you're brave and I wish you luck in getting help.

Aside from all that, maybe you should do these activities with your son? For him, not you. It may not help you at all (that's where your therapy will come in) but it may be good for him...

I hate lego, yet I've lost count of the hours I spent building houses that don't look anything like houses because that makes my children feel like I am interested. Even if I'm not.

Much of parenting is about doing things that you don't like doing.

You seem to direct a lot of anger to everyone and not just in your own head as you say.

My friend had a much wanted daughter, strangely my friend was also in the beauty industry (which by definition is very self centred) her daughter was plain, a tom boy, just not into having her hair brushed etc., my friend truly struggled and I had masses of sympathy. It ended when she decided to be honest to her child and tell her she didn't like her, she said sorry, but the damage was done. Don't make that mistake. Being a parent isn't just about love. Love isn't always enough to bring up a happy well balanced child. The absence of love therefore isn't the end of things, but you should do everything in your power to make your son FEEL loved.

Being harsh, as you seem to thrive on harsh words, ultimately this isn't about you sunshine, you are a parent... you have to step up whether you want to or not, or step aside before you do too much damage.

You are not evil, you are not bad, you are a complete megolmaniac who's used to getting what you want, but this isn't your fault and I doubt you'd have chosen to feel like you do, BUT this certainly isn't your son's fault so sit down, read him a story, play games with him for HIM. Get therapy for yourself. I wish you well.

I also want you to apologise to Black Swan, no matter what your problems, there's no excuse for being a bitch.

I have never wanted to hug a strangers son more than I do right now.

Good luck with your GP.

I have been thinking about this thread all day and trying to formulate a response based on what you have posted so far.

You may (or may not) be interested to know that I struggled greatly to bond with my son. Some of it is documented on the "Does anyone regret having children" thread on MN. For the first 4 years of my son's life there was not one "thunderbolt" moment. I, similar to you, went through the motions of feeding, clothing, holding, telling him I loved him but I didn't FEEL it. I didn't mention it to anyone, just nodded and made all the right noises at what I hoped were, appropriate moments. I did get the thunderbolt moment eventually (during a quite mundane activity as it happens) but, I won't bore you with the details.

I really hope you get the help you and your son deserve. Counselling can be a bit hit and miss though (as in, it's a lucky dip as to whether you get a counsellor who will "get" you). Just a thought. On that note, I can't help but mention your "tone" or how you come across. You are (to me) obviously an intelligent, literate woman. I wonder, and I'm not sure how to word this without sounding offensive, if you realise just how straight forward or harshly you may come across? I mention this because, if you don't feel you are extremely direct, then I would worry that whilst you say your son is oblivious...well...he may not be.

I don't feel I'm wording any of this very well at all so will leave it there. I am not, however, ill-educated

I do wish you and your son well.

Thanks Shakey, no I do appreciate what you're saying, and to think I'm this direct in front of my son/other people...would frankly be horrific. I feel quite confident now to say it how it is, directly, and to the point so there is no misinterpretation..on here, and on here alone. I don't mince my words because I feel finally that it's ok to really say it how it is, somewhere that no one that it affects will ever see, and amongst the company of some very supportive peers who have given some great advice. I think (a minority of) people are taking a lot at face value, and quite underestimating the actress I am in my role as mother. Maybe I presume that it should be numbingly obvious that my direct words in explaining my feelings on here is of course not how I bloody act in real life. I thought that went without saying....perhaps not. Aldiwhores post made me actually laugh out loud, so I can thank her for that at least. Some people can't read behind the lines, and all they can digest is "dickhead self obsessed model" Well....this dickhead self obsessed model is also a qualified chartered accountant, has a law degree, puts her son through private school, runs a (large and sodding dusty) house as a single mother, and has raised over £18k for Leukaemia Research this year alone by sponsored runs, boxathons, and all manner of things. The teacher as she handed me his report told me she had rarely met such a well rounded, lovely child. Believe me people. I'm telling you quite categorically, he picks up on nothing.

What was your thunderbolt moment? Did it change you forever, or do you still have days where you look at him and feel the same as before? It has just struck a chord because someone said something to me today only a few moments ago which has had quite a surprising result...it sounds so stupid, and shallow, but there may be a method behind the madness....

She said because I have such old fashioned views, on a man being a man and a woman being a woman, and you were so desperate to teach your daughter to be a lady, try thinking about a man you find really attractive, the qualities he has, the things he does, can't you start leading your son down that road. So I thought for a while, and told her about an ex of mine from many moons ago, who was a racing driver, which I found amazingly cool. So she said right take that exact thought, make him into a racing driver. Literally, start him racing karts and see if he likes it. And do you know what, for the first time ever, I had a mental picture in my head, of him in a little racesuit, carrying his helmet, and I actually feel like I want to try this. Which is massive, I've never initiated anything with him in my life, never been bothered enough to. I've taken him to everything he's asked for, swimming, karate, all the usual durge, but never once even been bothered to think of anything to suggest, because I've always felt so uninterested, in all that he's done. I know it's only a tiny thing, but when I say it's the first time in his life I've felt like I want to participate in something, it's huge.

x x x

Do you have any other symptoms of depression OP ?

You child does so well at school because he is desperate to please you

OP, I think maybe in a way it might have been easier if your DS had been a problem child as then you might have been forced to get more interested and participate more. But it sounds as though your DS is a bit like my DD who though is only 18 months, seems to be bringing herself up.

It's very easy to ignore someone who doesn't seem to need your attention. But though you say that your DS doesn't notice, I would on the other hand say categorically that he does notice, children do pick up on these things and no-one is that good an actor 100% of the time. But if this is his norm, he has probably got used to not asking those emotional things from you.

Basset...no to be honest, I googled it (the fountain of all knowledge lol) and no, I really don't think I'm technically depressed. I don't have really any of the symptoms associated with depression...well not in the "are you depressed" tick box bullet points I've seen. I'm certainly suffering from big issues here, but I can't label what those issues, are because I don't really know what my problem is with. I can't say whether I feel more disappointed, more like I've let myself down, bitter, like I've given up, because I just feel nothing. It's the only way I can describe it. When he falls and cries, I rush to pick him up, but there is not one bit of me that feels the cuddle better, I'm just doing what a mother should do when her child falls. I cuddle him, kiss it better, smile and pull funny faces til the tears turn to giggles and send him running off again. Nothing, nothing at all. That's what gets to me. If I was angry, I could identify that I was angry, and go to anger management...but I just don't know what's wrong with me...but hopefully the counsellor will at least give me a correct diagnosis.
Do you know the ironic thing, nearly every one of my friends coos over what an "amazing" mother I am. How they wish they could be a better parent like me. Inconceivable when you realise how messed up my head is, isn't it :(

x x x

No, I don't think it's inconceivable. When you are detached from something, you can be more precise in a clinical way IYSWIM? Sometimes being very emotionally invested in something can make you "perform" worse.

Oh I really don't underestimate how huge that must have been for you, honestly. Because my "thunderbolt" moment so completely took me by surprise and totally overwhelmed me that I literally sank to the floor and held him round the knees whilst sobbing (proper, massive, fuck off globules of tears) like a banshee.

I'd love to say the "moment" came during a momentous milestone occasion but alas, not as exciting. He had been trying to reach the light pull in the toilet for, seemingly, forever and on this day he managed it. But I heard the pull and the next moment he came flying round the corner with such a look of glee on his face saying "I DID IT!!". I'm not sure what happened next exactly, just that my heart stopped and....I knew. That's all. And I felt both relieved and bloody awful. Awful because I knew no matter how hard I'd tried, I hadn't given him all of me up till then (I know this reads as quite romanced and fairy tale-esque and I really don't want it to come across as "and the same should happen for you" ). Did it change me forever- yes, I guess it did. Have I ever gone back to feeling how I did? Yes, but fleetingly.

I "had it all" pre having my son. Lived the high life, fab social life, holidays whenever, lived in London, wanted for nothing. Never wanted kids, not a maternal bone in my body then BAM!. No high life, couldn't even get out for a cup of tea never mind a wine bar, holidays consisting of sodding baby wipes instead of make up removers and moved to the back of beyond. Total lifestyle change and I hated and resented it in equal measure. Absolutely I had PND but refused to seek help (another one who didn't want medication). Didn't let on to anyone. And, like you, I was absolutely convinced that he wouldn't have suspected a thing. Being that I'm an actor I could confidently tell myself that I had acted the role of a doting mother. Only now, when I look back, can I umm and ahh that I probably didn't. I read somewhere (around that time) that (and I quote) "A parent that is absent is a sad thing. But a parent that is present yet still absent is even worse". Harshly put I think but I recall reading it and thinking "Shit...that's me"

I do still yearn for my old life at times but I no longer think "Right, he's 4 now so that means I've only x7 times what I've already done till he's 18..."

But you're right, here is a place where we can be brutally candid, but a lot of people really do want to help

Will you let us know how you get on at GP's?

There's probably something in that....it does feel quite clinical internally in most respects of how I deal with him. Partly because my parenting style is like something out of the Von Trapp family crossed with Ghengis Khan...but I just have no maternal flicker inside me with regards to him at all. I am massively maternal, it's in my nature and my upbringing, but I have never felt like he is my child, I see none of me in him (despite hearing it all the time) and I just find no common ground, or want to find a common ground. I'm going to force myself to pursue this karting thing though. Even if the feeling inside me was 0.0000001% interest, that's more than I've ever felt before. Watch him turn round and tell me he hates it...seems quite fitting..... x x x

Shakey, that really means a lot to me. Like a lot a lot. Thank you sincerely for sharing that. Because I can relate to what you write exactly. The only difference is, I do still have it all...some days I want to kick my own backside because I just despair at how my life can seem so right, and yet my natural role on this earth as a mother has gone so catastrophically arse over face. How is it possible that I can achieve in my stride what most people strive for their entire lives, and yet when it comes to liking my own child I can't even manage that.

When it all went BAM, did you find it was quite a quick change within you, or was it little by little over quite some time?

x x x

Well the actual moment was momentous in itself because I really was despairing etc but I didn't turn into earth mother and start making chutney for the PTA overnight so I would say it grew gradually from there. I still had/have moments of despair but not in the same league. I guess I have reconciled myself to the fact that I am being the best mother that I can be, warts/faults and all. I'm a bit kinder to myself and try (though it's not easy) to take more of it in my stride. I bugger it up all the time and sometimes go to bed feeling like it's been a bad day in the Earth mother stakes. But I "allow" myself that and resolve that tomorrow is another day (there'll be a BAFTA for me yet).

I think a lot of it for me was that I wasn't very good with "babies". I find him more interesting as an individual, more independent being than a dribbling mass of arms and legs. I never could do the "cooing" and baby talk thing very well. He asks a question and gets a straight down the middle honest to goodness answer. So it helps me that he's a bit more interesting now

I'm glad you've made an appointment to see your GP, and I'm really hoping you get to chat to someone who well truly get where you are coming from.

My thunderbolt moment came when LO was about 9 months. I was looking back at photos of him, and spotted one where he was lying on his stomach, aged about 4 months, looking over his shoulder towards me. He looks just like my dad. I sobbed for about 30 minutes after finding that photo. My dad died when I was 11, and him not being able to meet his grandchildren always haunted me. I realised (in a really stupid dopey way), that he might not meet them, but he is within them. So cheesey, I'm sorry. Of course, my story is a little different to yours in that I didn't believe my boy was mine, didn't remember the birth, thought his real mother would come and collect him at some point, and I was just the babysitter. All the motions of care and attention, but no love or joy. After that moment, I began to realise that he was mine, and have since regained some memory of the birth and now find that I am sometimes overwhelmed by my love for him.

Yes, Shakey yes. I could have written much of what you wrote.

DD had a nasty fever and we couldn't get her temperature down with paracetamol so DH had to out in the night to go get some ibuprofen. Whilst he was gone, I was trying to keep her calm and cool and just like that I realised I actually DID care about happened to her and that I cared very, very deeply.

I was a textbook mother up to that point. I did the whole EBF thing, babywearing and on the surface I was beyond reproach but I was most definitely going through the motions and I kept thinking: Shit, what have I done? I've made the biggest mistake of my life haven't I? I spent hours crying on DH saying that "I don't get it". And then one day I did.

But I think it is very true what my DH said though and that's that I DID care. I also think that you OP care as well otherwise you wouldn't be trying at all.