What help can I get dealing with manic depressive and alcoholic DH - for me !?

[justoverit]

it's a long story. But recently dh has had a series of severe depressive episodes, fuelled by alcohol and culminating in quite extreme behaviour including suicide threats. Its happened 4 times over the last few months, each time we have fought and shouted and eventually talked and made decisions on how to get him out of this. The depression is a long standing problem, and drinking has been a problem on and off but the two are now more severe than ever. We have just now got him into counselling, via an alcohol recovery unit. We have two young dc (6 and 3).

He was only seen by the doctor today despite us having gone there a month ago for assessment, and is now on a waiting list for counselling. They say his problem is manic depression (which we have both long suspected) and not alcoholism. But he does drink a lot an in an alcoholic way, basically self medicating trying to stop himself feeling anything. He drinks all day and gets in a terrible state. At the worst point of one of the episodes he went to A&E and asked to be sectioned so that he could be taken into rehab but it turns out that doesn't happen these days and we've just had to deal with it ourselves while waiting for the alcohol recovery place to process him. He's very volatile, irrational and difficult to deal with and the whole thing has left me exhausted. The times in between i've just been dreading the next episode. Now it's happened again I feel i'm at the end of my tether. I'm not sure if I want to be with him in the future as I can't see it ending. I would support him a lot more wholeheartedly if he wasn't drinking. THe drinking makes me livid and i find it very difficult to be sympathetic to him, which is what lots of the arguments are about.

Since the beginning of this everyone's been telling me that i need to get some professional support. I have supportive friends and family. But the part about me getting prof. support has just been put on hold while the various ups and downs have happened. i've just been trying to keep things normal for the children and offload onto my friends but there is only so much they can do. It just seems that the help for him has taken so so long to sort out despite him telling them that he was suicidal. It makes me feel whats the point in seeking help for myself, and so I put it off but I know everyone's right and I need it. I'm feeling less able to cope this time and worry that i'm going to get depressed myself. I'm already really tired and have been ill for weeks on end which i'm sure is connected.

I wondered if anyone has been through anything similar and what I can realistically expect it terms of professional help for me. I feel that the Samaritans etc are just not adequate - like who do you call when your dh is threatening suicide with a knife to his wrist at 3 am? Can I get help ie with someone to look after the kids while i go to counselling? I don't feel that the help he's getting is really adequate either. I'm not sure where to start.

Wow, sounds incredibly hard.

Now he is in the 'system' you should be given/be able to ask for crisis numbers in regards to the suicide threats. An specialist assessment team can come and see your DH in an emergency. Their available hours vary on where you live, and the provisions the local mh team has. The general advice if someone is threatening suicide in the wee hours with a knife is 999 or a car trip to a&e if you driving him is possible. Then there will be a assessment in a&e with the on duty psych team. This must be so scary for you. If you do call 999 because he is suicidal the police will normally be sent out too...which can be v. scary but is protocol.

A&E for a psych assessment can be feel futile because the often do not do much, but they can admit to a ward if they feel it is needed and prescribe medications. The thing is..the more often you go when in real need it gets recorded and they will pay attention if this is happening regularly, so please do not suffer through his suicide threat alone. If you feel he is at risk of harming himself in any way (or others) or you just full stop cannot cope go to A&E for an assessment. The on-call team is there for that reason & it can be a gateway to the right treatment for some. Obviously it is not queue jumping as if he is repeatedly suicidal he needs help faster...

I really do understand why you are frustrated with the system, it is so frustrating. but if you go to your GP they should be able to refer you to counselling. Also if your DH is in this rehab team now they should be able to provide help & refer you. There is also a lot of sites online (like MIND) that have pages for carers and numbers you can call for support. The Smaratians could be useful for you if you need someone objective and removed to offload to, and they are really good- often you can set up and dates and time to call back and talk to the same person so you do not need to go over the story again and again. I think this would possibly be more helpful for you than your DH though..it sounds as if he needs help with the drinking before he can clearly think about talking rationally about his issues.

I am sorry I can not give more advice. it sounds like a really difficult situation, especially with your two DC's. I am not surprised you are run down - and the main advice is that you need to look after yourself first before you can care for others. I know this is so hard. I speak more as a psych-patient than a carer but will help any way I can. Hopefully you will get other replies to this thread with people who have been in your situation as there are (sadly) so many people like you out there.

Good luck & I hope your DH gets the help he needs - and that you do too.

Thank you so much, twitch, that's all really good advice. I would never have thought of calling 999, honestly. I hope we don't have to go through that again, but it's good to know that just in case. I think i've been trying to cope with this on my own way too much, partly because I got a bit disillusioned with the mental health people and partly as i just don't know where to go. I'm going to make some calls tomorrow morning, and get myself to the GP. He is trying to deal with the drinking, and him agreeing to counselling is a big leap forward so I 'm hoping they see him quickly.

Yes call 999 anytime day or night.
It gets the immediate help.
Yes it will trigger police and follow up but you need that and he needs that.

It is a hard thing to do the first time but you need to tell yourself that next time this is what you will do for his own good. It took me far too many episodes before I dialled 999 on my exp. but be safe he may try to stop you. Remove yourself from room to call.keep charged mobile on you.

With two small dc you not gonna be driving him to a and e are you?
If they do come and take him to a and e in middle of night don't worry they will take care of him stay with dc til morning then make arrangements. Dc come first.

Read depression fallout and ask for counselling for yourself from gp

www.amazon.co.uk/How-Survive-When-Theyre-Depressed/dp/0609804154/ref=pd_bxgy_b_img_b

Get three year old into nursery so you can access counselling while both are in school and nursery.

And call al anon you need to try and establish where the alcohol problem ends and the depression begins.., May be tricky.m

But by callling paramedics 999 on him next time He is threatening suicide or otherwise scary behaviour you will get message out to him and to mh team that it is serious. It is serious because you have two small dc and they cannot run from this .

Also if his behaviour is scary to you and dc you can refuse to have him home and insist he is admitted or helped to find other temp accommodation while he gets helped.

Thank you celavie. I wish i had been on here earlier in this whole chain of events.

it is really hard when you caught up in thick of it but you have to think about being cruel to be kind.

so long as he is able to stay living with you and dc and is allowed to drink what he likes he has no incentive to change

so long as he can threaten suicide at 3 am with no consequences he will do so again and again - if is genuine cry for help then respond by calling 999 (when i tried to call my exp would grab phone off me - be careful)

so long as you put up with him, and put him up, he wont get into any in-house programme - even after exp went completely beserk and violent mh team at hosp were happy to send him home with me and visit next day - i had to stand firm and say i could not have him in the house with me and DC. (he was then admitted voluntarily)

so long as you let them know (by not being firm on what is needed) it is ok for you and dc to live with him being volatile, irrational and difficult to deal with (what is impact on dc of this?) then nothing will change. not because you happy with it; but funding etc being what it is - the squeaky wheel gets the oil. so long as you willing to provide him with bed and board - they not going to do this, even if it is what he needs.

you have DC and you can get support to get him elsewhere to get the help he needs. it is hard - but it may be that forcing him out elsewhere to get treatment will be the push he and the system needs - otherwise this could continue for months.

is there a friend or relative who would put him up while he gets help so he visits with DC when he is stable and not drunk etc? this will send clear message to him that the drinking is not acceptable to you etc .

(eventually my exp went away to stay with friends - they were willing to take him on - after the major episode - it was such a relief...he did get much better tho later had relapses later which is another long story!)

His getting professional help does not guarantee that he will get better or that this will end . That is his job, his alone, and not your responsibility. His GPs diagnosis of manic depression does not mean he is not an alcoholic too, they are not exclusive. GPs are generalists and not specialists. Treatment for the mental health issues will be very complicated because of the drinking, and giving up drink if you are addicted is extremely hard. If it was easy AA would not be such a booming organisation. If he says he can do it 'on his own' just take that and interpret it as, I don't want to give up beer and I have no intention of doing that. Addicts are very good manipulators and liars.

You need to put yourself first. Do nice things for you, follow your dreams and hopes, get out and about. Talk to people. Don't isolate. Tell people. Get financial independence, or information about how to support yourself - there is nothing wrong with knowing your options. CAB are good for that. And will have heard it all before. For the children, if you talk to the school, there is help and support there for them too. They will be affected by all of this.

Going to Al Anon family group meetings will help you understand how you can cope (or not) with his drinking. Going to CODA meetings will help you understand how to look after yourself. Both meetings will help you and also give you a lot of support, including how to not enable him, as well as meeting people with similar experiences. Also it will give you an insight of what it is like to grow up in an alcoholic and dysfunctional environment, it always frightens me the enormity of the effect of alcoholism on adult-children even after they have left the family home. You could try going to an open AA meeting, to better understand alcoholism, even ask questions.

Looking at the depression fallout chat room (google it) will put you in touch with people (many in the US, some UK) that live with partners with depression and manic depression, they are a lovely bunch. There is another website, the blackdogtribe that is worth looking at. If he threatens suicide take it seriously and call 999, don't suffer in silence. It gets to the stage where it is almost a form of manipulation... (if I didn't drink I would kill myself, if I can't treat myself to X I will....). BALDERDASH. And on the off chance if he does try to do this and you haven't told anyone you will suffer.

I would go to the GP and talk to them about your suffering and they may be able to prescribe some therapy or put you in touch with an organisation that can.

In my situation it was depression and drinking. He had access to the best therapy and help in the UK for years and went through the motions. Nothing really changed in his behaviour. I asked him to leave. I could not continue to live like that, it was making me extremely unwell, not to mention our children. For us there was no happy ending. Well, I feel this enormous sense of relief and excitement for my future, but realise it has to be without him.

I was watching some BBC show yesterday, talking about Addaction and a report they just came out with. 1/4 of children in the UK live with a family member who is an alcoholic and they are 7 times more likely to become alcoholics themselves. . Completely pointless last paragraph from me, it just sat in my mind and made me feel sad.

Well, I went to the GP yesterday and have signed up for counselling. She confirmed that we are doing the right thing re treatment and that yes it's just a slow process. I also went to an Alanon meeting ( i have been before, about 2 years ago when he was in a similar though less extreme state (not suicidal but drinking). I found it really comforting, I had forgotten how much it helped, and I will go back.

It turns out that he is on an 8 week waiting list for counselling via the alcohol recovery unit. They also have not finished assessing him yet, though he's been to 3 appointments, the GP there who said she thought it was manic depression was, it seems, just giving an opinion. The only reason they said he was not an alcoholic was that he can stop fairly easily - like he has drunk for 5 days in a row but will then stop. There is definitely a problem, he knows and they know, i think its just a case of definition. They haven't done a full psychiatric assessment yet. He is also going to an AA meeting on Sunday with a friend who is in recovery.

We also called a couple of private clinics, just to see how much we were looking at for residential detox and treatment (too much). One of them spoke to us for ages and said that we should lean harder on the NHS and we would get him into treatment, residential if necessary. They said that the NHS were failing us and similarly, that we had to shout a bit louder to get heard by them.

I completely agree with what you're saying about me putting him up. Each time this has happened, i have told him he has to leave the house and cannot drink/be drunk here. We have tried, there isn't really anyone he can go to, he has been to friends but they didn't want him to stay and i can't blame them. We live in london, people have busy lives, families, no spare rooms. One of them did put him up for a night this week but he can't go again. He totally agrees that he shouldn't be living with us and time and time again i've wished he could be elsewhere. They are telling me that unless he is homeless they won't take him into a residential treatment centre, and as i said, we can't afford a private clinic.

My other problem is that although i am resolved each time that he has to leave, and i don't want the kids to see us arguing, or him drunk (though he is largely functional in the day times, its later when we inevitably start rowing), i feel that it's unfair to push a very depressed person out of the house - while it makes total sense to push a drunk out of the house! It's so hard.

I am going to call the alcohol unit on Monday and try to get a clearer picture of the situation and if we really have to wait for 8 weeks for treatment. And if we push harder maybe we can get him into a centre.

All i keep hearing is that this sort of care used to be available but is dwindling due to cuts. And if there are that many alcoholics in the UK it's just terrifying to contemplate what's going to happen when people ask for help and can't get it. It's really effed up isn't it.

Just wanted to send you a virtual hug. Where you are right now is a horrible place to be in. And one you don't have to stay in forever, you just need to decide where you want to be (whether it is wait and see if treatment helps, or leave). Whatever you decide there is no correct answer, and nothing is irreversible.

The GP is wrong, alcoholics can be "high functioning", hold down jobs, abstain for days... but the latter is all part of the disease and denial and makes it harder to treat them. My alcoholic could binge, then stop for days, even weeks. He didn't have to drink during the day. Even occasionally only have one drink (rare). It was all part of his illusion that he had control, the same way some stick to one drink only, because they believe if they only drink beer and not vodka they are not really alcoholics. I think the definition of an alcoholic is someone who's drinking affects their relationships and ability to lead a 'normal' life. Someone at Al Anon or AA can correct that. With an alcoholic it is all about the reasons they drink (to suppress feelings) and they are powerless over drink. They say that no two alcoholics are exactly the same, in terms of patterns of drinking, it is such a complicated disease and a progressive disease.

I have yet to meet an alcoholic who hasn't been diagnosed with depression as well. The two seems to be a bit chicken and egg, almost as though they were part of the same disease. But I have had a friend who has suffered depression (only) for 20 years, describe how in her opinion the two 'forms of depression' are almost like two totally separate illnesses, in terms of behaviour and mindset. And in my case, my alcoholic used his depression as an excuse for his unreasonable behaviour.

It may be worth you calling all the addiction/alcoholic charities and even all the treatment centres in the UK. They may have charity beds, as such. Or even look at primary care abroad, such as South Africa, it may be substantially cheaper.

The other thing to consider is, as long as you put up with it, you are enabling him and not giving him a reason to want to stop drinking. A friend recommended a book, the games people play, which has a scenario about the roles people play around the alcoholic. That was interesting. I think Al Anon have a leaflet, called merry go round or carrousel, which says something similar. As long as you play the role he needs, he will not change.

Best of luck.

Thank you daffy. I think you're right. i don't know why that doctor said that, she works at the alcohol recovery unit so it's not like she's an uninformed GP. I think maybe he's seized on the not-an-alcoholic tag to make himself feel better. He's definitely definitely got a problem and he does know it, has been saying he's an alcoholic for a few years. That's good advice to call round the centres too, i'll give it a go.

I understand about enabling, i have told him that i'm at the end of my tether and that things can't carry on like this. The kids are being affected, my 6 year old is asking why we keep shouting. I am basically financially dependent on him so that makes it all harder. Until recently, i thought that i would wait until the kids were a bit older and then leave. Now i think about it all the time but the reality of how i will support myself and kids is scary. So i've decided I will see this period of treatment through with him, as it's the first time he's done anything other than go to AA meetings - ie gone to ask for professional help - but that this is his last chance.

Stay strong. You are both parents to your DCs, but my reading of this is that he's not making a very good parent. So it's up to you. Your DCs have only one childhood and will use what they see around them as normal, and it will embed itself in them as a template for their future relationships. I think you know this. You need to look after them - they are very young - and yourself; he is an adult and is responsible for his own actions, whatever he might think.

My DH is depressed, and although my situation is different from yours I understand the dilemma about not wanting to throw out a depressed person.

Do call 999 if he does anything that scares you.

Do you work?
Could you be financially independent?
What would happen if he did commit suicide or die thru drink behaviour or other ?

His friends don't want him. Funny that....

There are other options. Short term a hotel or b and b. longer term consider him renting a studio flat for six months near by.

Your son is making a valid point and you need to listen to him.

If the rows continue then you have to take action.

Have a look at realistic studio flats and see if he could move out for those six months of an Asured tenancy . Gives you time to then breathe and then review progress in his treatment .

sometimes you do have to throw money at the problem.

Gp isn't living this day to day.

The fact that you think you might leave later anyway when kids are older . That is how I felt too.
Talk about it in counselling.
Ask your self why wait?

Your son is being impacted.

Think realistically about practicalities of separating even if you see it as six month trial .
Look at local studio lets and find the money to put him into a six month let on a studio while he pursues treatment and proves he really wants to change .

justoverit just because you feel financially dependent on him, does not mean you have to stay. Seriously, go and talk to CAB and see what support might be out there for you, or look at entitledto.com .

I felt that way for 6 years, and with a lot of help I realised that actually I can manage on my own with young children. If you have no money or earnings or savings there is help out there in benefits, there is income support, job seekers allowance, child tax credits, working tax credits, help with childcare, housing benefits. If you have family that might support you that will help. If he is working he needs to provide 20% of his taxed income as child maintenance. And you can work on your own self-esteem and getting a job. Or getting a better paid job. Retrain if you have to. I stayed because I felt so dependent on his income being a SAHM. I left with nothing, it is scary and terrifying and liberating and freeing.

But the bottom line is that is not a good reason, for your own sanity and health, to stay. It is not the easy way out, a bit of pride has to be swallowed. But staying with someone who drinks and is sad the whole time, is not exactly good for your pride either. You don't need to do anything, just arm yourself with information. Knowledge is power.

And as c'estlavie says, change doesn't have to be permanent. Perhaps just space while he tries to sort himself out. Just remember he may never manage. You could be waiting for nothing. I have met people who's spouses were inpatients at major detox treatment centres 6 times and still nothing. He needs to want to change, and the one thing about an addict - they are very good at telling you what you want to hear. Seeing it in action is another matter. He goes to AA- has he got a sponsor, does he go several times a week, or when he feels he needs to. Is he working the steps. Does he call out. Or is he doing on an ad hoc basis to stop you moaning. A true recovery has a lot of humility and soul searching in it. Does he have that. Or is he just blaming everyone for his problems.

Thank you all for all this advice. He has stopped drinking and calmed down , he had loads of panic attacks yesterday but is ok now. He went to a meeting last night and this morning and came back feeling positive, which is great.

I wish there was someone who had a similar story with a happy ending, but I don't think i've ever heard one where the couple stay together. Have you? I do really believe he wants to get better but I don't know if he can, i think maybe it all runs too deep. He's very self aware and honest, and he feels terrible for what he's put me through but all that doesn't make it ok does it?.

He's not so much sad, he's angry with the world, doesn't like himself very much, and questions everything so much I don't think he can ever just enjoy life. He has only just started to go to AA meetings this week, but he 's been before, got a sponsor and started working on the steps but it just dwindled as he felt better. I can see how hard it is for him to stay sober and i worry that now as soon as he drinks the lows are so quick to happen, and so extreme. If i stay with him i'm worried i'm just going to spend my life on an emotional rollercoaster as he stops and starts drinking and goes up and down mentally. I'm not scared of him but i hate the extreme emotions and the constant rows.

I'm really confused about everything at the moment but I will make enquiries at CAB about benefits etc so that I have a clearer picture of how I could potentially survive on my own. I do work but don't earn enough to support me and the kids so I would basically putting myself on benefits which I realise is no picnic these days. And sadly we really can't afford to put him in a separate flat while he sorts himself out - though this sort of time out is what i feel instinctively that we need.

Going to bed now as it's so late and this post has taken me ages to write. But thanks again and i'll check back. I'd like to know how you actually left your ex, daffy..?

i'm going to delete some of my contributions to this thread as i'm really worried that he'll see it. But I've copied it all down and really really appreciate the advice.

My partner has bipolar, but thanks to medication, is now totally stable. We did stay together, but my partner went to Dr, was honest and got prescribed lithium. My partner takes this regularly and has learned to manage bipolar so that it is no longer an issue for us.

But when things were bad in terms of support for me, tbh apart from friends I never found any, in spite of asking for it. Sorry I know thats not helpful.

One thing I would say from learning more and more about bipolar is that I really believe the way someone behaves still reflects their basic personality. So my partner was never violent, but the manic things were all about saving the world and helping out underpriveleged groups with totally unrealistic plans.

Self medicating is common, but will make things worse. I have never heard of anyone who really does have bipolar, being stable and not being on life long medication. If he will do this, then it may be you have a future together.

But of course things may have deteriorated too far for you to consider this. You don't owe it to him to stay. The only people you owe anything to is your children and you do have to think of their well being in all of this. Good luck.

Hi, Just. In reply to your recent post, which may have gone by the time you read this:-

I was in rehab. About a quarter of my peers' partners stuck beside them throughout treatment and recovery. About two-thirds of them are still together.

I regret to say I think those loyal partners were, and are, mistaken. The dysfunctions in their relationships were blatantly obvious to everyone else in the group, thanks to the insight granted by 24/7 group therapy, and remained pretty much the same for the two years we continued to meet. To compress a complicated problem, the addict was treated but the dynamics of the relationship didn't really change. I saw at least one couple switch roles - the drunk got sober, and the sober partner became a drunk!

There is one truly happy ending. The addict's partner was a fantastically sane, balanced person and the addict's problems were nearly all caused by the drug. This is quite unusual. As you've discovered, addicts usually get that way through trying to blot out a mental health problem. The addiction then reinforces the problem, tempting the sufferer to try harder to shut it down.

Obviously you won't get many addicts acknowledging the mental health problem while they're still using, so treatment aims to get them sober first. However, you can't fix the problem long-term without resolving both issues.

12-step programs can go a long way to fix the underlying issues, if the addict engages fully, but bipolar needs medical treatment and learned management techniques as well. It's going to be a long haul. Only you will know how likely it is to work in your husband's case, and whether you can stand it.

One thing you really must remember is never to sacrifice your own emotional or mental health, or that of your children. Keep the "three Cs" in mind:
You didn't cause it
You can't control it
You can't cure it.

It sounds very as much as if you're already so locked into the "mad world", you've lost sight of the ordinary one, where people are not scared and worried all the time, and where help is available when you reach out. Of course you should call 999 if your husband threatens suicide or if you feel threatened by him. This is normal! Of course you should chuck him out if he's behaving intolerably - the reasons why are irrelevant, he's in your home with your children.

Support groups like Al-Anon might be able to help you.
Take good care of yourself.

I really believe the way someone behaves still reflects their basic personality

Agreed, Lesley.

Garlicnutter thank you for that, it was so honest and insightful. It really nearly brought tears to my eyes, because I think there are so few partners of people who are addicts that wouldn't do anything they could to help, but it is whether they can. I agree that dysfunctions in the relationship are created from the situation and become the norm, and without both parties going to whichever 12 step group it is for couples to work on it together (and that is quite far down the recovery process).... it is so difficult and sad.

How did I leave my ex. It was hard. I lost myself totally in the relationship but was lucky enough to have therapy and learn to get out of the codependent mess I was in. I tried so hard to help him. And it made me very ill. I told him that my boundary was that he stop drinking, I meant it, and he promised he had. He lied about it for several months and I caught him out (well you aren't going to ask someone to leave on a suspicion no matter how blatant it is). I asked him to leave after umming and ahhing for a few days, during which he was just being defensive and childish. He stomped out. Apparently my personality is flawed and that "caused all his problems". He is so sadly still in denial. But being reasonably 'pleasant'. And now I rebuild my life from the train wreck that it was. And I still have little doubts, I wish I could have saved the marriage, and helped him, but I am feeling so free. I recognise myself again. I am so much happier. And this is just one month down, I have a whole life ahead of me!

I agree with someone's behaviour reflecting their personality. And that scares me a little.

you are not scared of him (but you were scared for him at 3 am when he had a knife and was threatening suicide?) but put youself in your childrens position and ask yourself if they feel scared when they hear and sense the rows and tension.

set your boundaries.
what will you tolerate for you and DC?

look practically at what you could do were you to split temporarily (or permaenently) . keep your job if you can and get top up credits etc .

clear boundaries
clear consequences
you see him with a drink or drunk - what will you do?

you can change your reactions

be stronger and clearer
put yourself in your dc's shoes and think - would they be happier at the moment with this person here drunk and ranting - or should he leave?
or should I leave right now with dc to friend or relative?

have somewhere that you or he goes when he crosses the boundaries.

and - dial 999 at any point.

Thank you all for all you've said. You're all inspirations and i'm sorry for what you've had to go through to be this wise. I'm not ready to leave yet. I'm going to give him a chance to sort himself out as i feel we're at the beginning of something in terms of proper help and we have to try it. I'm so sad to be realising that whatever happens isn't going to be good.

But the advice about boundaries is good and i realise i need to stick to my instincts that I don't want to have him here when he's drinking. Every time it's happened i've just got so angry and desperate all my sense has gone out the window but if he does relapse again i'll just book him into a hotel.

I'l keep checking in here but for the moment i need to live day by day for a bit, my head is wrecked with all the thinking about my future and at least while he's sober i need to try and be positive. I really won't put up with anything like what happened before.

Just wanted to say that I've met lots of couples in the AA/Al-Anon fellowship who are still together and in good, happy relationships, so please keep attending (and listening). Best wishes for now and the future.

no, no, no - please dont book him into a hotel ! that would also be enabling him - let him book himself in.

he has to learn the consequences of his behaviour.

and if it means him banging on your locked door, drunk, demanding to come in and you have to call the police to have him taken off to a cell overnight for breach of peace - well so be it.

if he knows he can get drunk and you will provide him with ensuite room in nearest hotel on your credit card - well he will laugh and laugh

Agree with cest. He has to be responsible for his own consequences. If you want to speed his recovery, speed up his 'rock bottom' by refusing to cushion his excesses.

Don't know if you're a Corrie fan but, if so: Leanne's better for Peter and Simon than Carla is! (Though Carla's learning. Perhaps she reads MN )

You see this is where I feel confused by the stance I should take toward someone who is in a suicidal state, and someone who needs to learn their drinking won't be tolerated. The reason i said i'd book him into a hotel is that last time this happened he agreed he shouldn't be at home, went off to find a hotel, went to 3 that wouldn't take him, went to a final one that would but he didn't have a passport or credit card, just a debit which they wouldn't take. So he came home. The following time he went off, with the right stuff, they don't take walk ins, he had to try and failed to book in from the hotel lobby on their computer which rejected his card for security reasons (all true, the bank called the next day). He came home both times quietly and let himself in, slept on the sofa. So i was meaning that I would book him into a hotel using our joint bank account card, as he's just rubbish at that sort of thing. I'd never use my own money. Is this enabling? Isn't it just ensuring that he's away from me and the kids?

I know i sound like i'm making excuses but i'm so confused. if I kicked him out and he had failed to sort his own hotel or had to sleep on the street, I would feel that i had pushed him into a crisis where he would end up feeling more sorry for himself, get more drunk, get in trouble. We live in a scary part of London and there are plenty of people ready to take advantage of a drunk vulnerable person. i find it so difficult to get my head around pushing someone into a rock bottom situation when they are so low mentally.

My other problem, and why i have let him stay during the drinking episodes, is that in order for me to carry on living some kind of life I have needed him to do the usual childcare. So e.g if i send him out, i then can't go to work in the morning because he usually takes and picks up the kids from school and nursery. I don't have people around me that I can ask to do stuff like that. Parents are miles away, other friends can't drop everything to do stuff like this. And i can't not go to work. I'll lose my bookings (i'm freelance, but get booked into work in peoples offices, with usual office hours I can't change. So i'm affected. I want to go to Alanon meetings in the evening, and meet my friends who have been supporting me. So i need him here. He can function enough to do those things too.

I just feel so perplexed by all this. it's like i know what the theories are - not enabling, letting him deal with the consequences, letting him reach rock bottom, but actually putting them into practise is just to cause myself even more stress and practical difficulties.