could someone explain the difference between a Narcissist and

[passionsrunhigh]

and a basically arrogant/selfish person? where is the line between people who chose to be like that because they can (say, a big headed person in position of money and power), and those for whom it's a mental illness? Sorry if this is naive, but after briefly looking through couple of sites, I'm non the wiser. Is narcissism actually a properly recognised abnormal condition, or a personality type?

Normal people have traits of all personality disorders and generally show more of one than another but they do show evidence of all. Someone who is selfish can be selfish most of the time but know it is wrong and will show empathy at certain times, someone who has narccassim is not capable of empathy and any kind act is done with the purpose of helping themselves e.g buying shoes so the person has to be grateful and accept bad behaviour, every nice thing has a ulterior motive which benefits the narrcassist, it is a delusional disorder and they do not know it is wrong because they truly believe they deserve to be treated like a god and others are of little importance. They are aware others have emotions but thier only importance is so the narrcassist can manipulate and abuse them. Basically it is the extremity normally personality traits do not greatly interfere with thier life to the point where they dont go out (avoidant) or abuse others (narrcassist) and they do not have a extreme personality trait to the exclusion of the others the other traits provide balance more so in some than others. Does this help?

Thank you, Crawling - interesting point that everyone has all the traits, I always found it strange to 'diagnose' others and myself because you can find something true in these descriptions, so I thought maybe this is all just not developed enough, these theories. As to narcissists - they don't inderstand empathy, but surely they aer not allowed to just carry on by the majority of people they come in contact with?? So can they reserve their behaviour only to their close partner, or if not, what happens whgen they are challenged and when people want nothing to do with them? It's not all there for them to play with, is there?

found it strangely difficult, I meant.

My MIL has NPD she has lost her best friend (didnt invite her to her wedding they only invited thier parents)
Her first husband (she physically abused him and then stopped him seeing the children)
Her second husband (she tried to run him over because he wasnt listening to her)
Her mum and dad (just general not accepting of behaviour)
Her two brothers (she refused to call them and insisted they call her)
My partner (her DS) and our 3 children because of her constant selfish behaviour when called out on it she physically attacked me)
Her other DS because she refused to ask after his DW after her serious operation.

But she sais to her only remaining child that we will all be sorry and go crawling back, it is insane that she has lost so much yet continues and really believes we suffer more and want her back. It is deluded but we are no more than chess pieces to her and unimportant, she doesn't learn.

As for us all having elements I personally lean more towards scizoid. Sometimes I could drive myself insane with trying to figure out how she cannot see how much she has lost. Do you know someone or suspect someone has NPD? If so treatment generally doesnt help them because the nature of the illness means that they are unable to change in order to stop hurting people because they dont care and they are unable to accept that someone so low and beneath them has hurt them by cutting contact, even though it does hurt them. So generally they refuse to be helped.

Crawling - had to giggle @ your MIL trying to run over her hubbie for not listening to her! Seriously though she must be in a lot of mental distress even if she doesn't recognise or get help for the NPD.
I do feel sad for her - & her family.

NPD is truly tragic as its main trait involved manipulating loved ones, and as crawling says, sufferers lack the insight needed for change. And in the end loved ones will often need to cut ties to protect themselves.

Yes I am often filled with sadness and pity for her, I also feel guilty over cutting contact but me and my DP had to because not only was she hurting us but she was causing significant harm to our DC . I am also sure she is suffering but there is nothing we can do.

Also, Personality Disorders are not categorised as mental illnesses per se. A person with a PD can have attendant mental health problems such as a mood disorder or formal thought disorder (psychosis) but Psychiatry does not regard Pd as a 'treatable illness'.

Therapies such as DBT (Dialectical Behaviour Therapy) and therapeutic communities are more appropriate and manage the maladaptive behaviours and the underlying distorted schemas that underpin the P.D.

thank you all for replies!
nursenic - I thinbk a thought of communities (being grouped with other people with issues) is a repulsive thought for an NPD!
Crawley - so is MIL completely alone now? that's what I don't get - I 've read that npd people need admirers, do they actually deal with loneliness well? I knew a man with NPD - couldn't explain his behaviour before i read up on the subject. Banging on about how special he was and deserving to be born into priveledged family and to be rich, zero compassion to animals or any people - but if he wanted someone (female) he strangely let them bully him (now i realise that he saw it as deal - he gets someone attractive on his arm when he was a piece of shite with nothing to offer with regard to morals/any job/even money as it raised his selfimage so he was prepared to suffer for it (felt deep down he deserved abuse kind of mentality) - but what baffled me most is that women where after him based on his good-ish (for hi s old age, not that he wasn't deluded), thus feeding his ego
though no one ever wanted him for long. The most telling thing was - with countless failed r-ships - it was NEVER his fault, always women done smth wrong. He was a very sorry empry person using others as changeable crutches all his life. But i still think NPD can be challenged and can feel bad about themselves deep down (if not admit to it).
madmouse - assuming an npd is intelligent, could they not get an insight by reading a book on NPD - even someone given it to them?

good-ish looks, I meant

She has one child left. NPD do deep down have very low confidance so they over inflate how important they are. They usually assign roles to children either a scapegoat (where the child is blamed for everything and used for all the NPD person failings to poured into so they become the childs failings) and a golden child who is choosen to be the best at everything and give reflected glory and admiration for the NPD person over praised and made out to be perfect because they follow the NPD person.

You would think they need praise and admiration more but they actually need somewhere to put thier flaws more and abuse and exercise power over. The child MIL has left was the golden child but now that her two scapegoat children have gone the remaining child has been changed to scapegoat and is blamed for the siblings having left, because she cannot blame herself and she cant shout at her other children.

She will not change because she cannot admit that other people are important. Also to change means accepting that the 30 years of abuse she has delivered was wrong because she is not special, she would need to feel that guilt and she is not strong enough because really her confidance is low as is her strength.

passions insight and intelligence are not linked unfortunately and NPD almost automatically means that the other person (ie the one that gives them the book) is wrong.

Crawling I could write a book on this subject. You could be describing my mum here. I am the scapegoat, one of my younger brothers is the 'golden child' who is also gay so there will never be any competition/ any other woman as role model. It's a very complex, manipulative issue and narcissists are often highly intelligent and play their families off against each other. I've not spoken to my narcissistic mother for 5 years now, she's never met my beautiful two children. But the strange thing is - there's something compelling, and I often find myself blocking out all the bad stuff and considering making contact again.

passionsrunhigh Hell yeah - people with NPD need admirers, like they need air to breathe. If you met my mum for instance, you would think her incredibly charming and you may well feel compelled to compliment her - it's very strange.