I don't know what to do. Please help!

[ToysRLuv]

This is a long one, sorry. I have PND (and problems bonding with DS - often feeling angry and resentful, because he has not been the easiest of babies and he doesn't feel like he's mine) and until a few months ago was on citalopram. I then gave it up, because wasn't convinced it was actually doing anything (I have been on meds for depression before and they never helped) plus was never organised enough to book an appointment at the doctors' in time to not run out of the meds. Since then things have gone a bit downhill.

Don't get me wrong, thing's weren't easy before (far from), but now I started feeling seriously angry and my fuse reduced to nothing. DS (14 months) was behaving reasonably well and even sleeping through quite often (or if he woke up, was fairly easy to get back to sleep). Even though I was snapping at DH and DS (I hate myself for this) I began to feel that maybe I could cope after all. Since then DS had his MMR and pneumococcal jabs we have travelled to the gradparents (who he visits quite often despite the distance and 2 hour time difference, which hasn't bothered him until now) for Christmas. DH will come later as he will try to do work while we're gone. He's self-employed and works at home, but his work never gets anywhere while me and DS are at home, so that's another reason we travel. At one point we tried to put DS into daycare, but he is sensitive so did not settle in (and was a nightmare at home as well, as a result).

Anyways, three days after the jabs and the second day at grandparents he's sleep is all over the place and I am at the end of my tether. DS is suddenly even more clingy and I don't feel like even talking to him. I just don't have the resources to cope with this. Yesterday he had a very long nap (3 hours) and I thought that he might have died. Then though, that maybe that's for the best. I was given a 2 month supply of citalopram before I left for the trip, but can't begin to take it now, because I want it to last until I go back mid February. It's torture waiting, since the meds are now my only hope.

I so want to be a good unconditionally caring mother, and I realise that he is just a baby, so not accountable for his actions, but still.. I am horrible. I cling to a hope that the change in his sleep clinginess is due to the jabs, but somehow doubt it. I see years of this in front of me and I wonder whether I should just give up, and leave him at his grandparents (who have a lot more patience than me). DH would agree with whatever I decided to do (because he isn't coping fantastically either). In a weird way I love DS, so would feel devastated and like a complete failure if I left him with grandparents, but don't know what else to do. Sorry for rambling on.

You need to seriously consider starting those meds today and getting seen again before htey run out. There is no reason why you cannot see a doctor wherever you are to get more before February.You can see another doctor as a visiting patient if needed.

You may sound rational to yourself but you are talking pretty bad depression, especially the it being for the best to leave ds with grandparents 'as they are more patient' - they are not, you are ill.

Time to wake up, take yourself seriously and get the help you need.

Take the meds. You are in the UK, you can see a doctor at the grandparents' practice. To do anything else would be prolog your pnd.

Are you getting any other supprt for your pnd? Is your HV involved?

Plus re childcare, why not a child-minder rather than a nursery?

How long have you been suffering with depression? Since before you had children? What help, other than meds, have you had? What support are you getting now? Are you sharing these experiences with anyone other than online?

It sounds to me as though you are seriously depressed. Motherhood is never easy, and tests the patience of even those people lucky enough not to have any mental health issues.

The most important thing you can do right now is to get yourself some proper help, and by this I mean something in addition to medication. Now is NOT the right time to come off the meds, even if you feel they're not doing anything - you perhaps need a change of meds, a change of dosage, or to be diagnosed with something other than depression - depression very rarely occurs on its own.

Would you be willing to start taking your mental health in hand, by starting psychotherapy? As someone who has experienced extreme mental distress, therapy has been the only thing that's helped me. Meds have provided a false high, enough to carry me for a bit, but for serious, lasting, deep change, and to really feel like you can cope, you will need psychotherapy. There are quite a few places that do low cost psychotherapy, so if you're interested let me know and I'll point you in the right direction.

Thanks everyone. I know I'm probably playing with my health a bit, but depression is something that has followed me through most of my life, and I am not entirely sure whether it is just my personality, which obviously cannot be altered. I don't know how I ever thought I could be a good mother. Had some rosy expectations of living with DS. The reality has not been too far from hell (during the first week out of hospital I was nearly psychotic with exhaustion).

Have had some psychotherapy/counselling for this and it was nice to talk to someone, although it has not really helped that much. Because my constant (every couple of months) travelling (I'm now elsewhere in Europe with my folks - do not have anyone else to give me practical help) I have had to stop it (they cannot hold my slot for me for months). Do not have money for private counselling. Cannot talk about my deepest feelings to any of my friends (more like estranged friends now that we all life far apart and I haven't had the energy or will to keep in contact), as they would be horrified (especially my friend, who has a DS of the same age as mine, and she dotes on him - they co-sleep and could not be any closer).

Will think about starting meds right now, but from experience I know that they do not make you feel better straight away, anyways. I do feel they might have helped (they haven't done harm.. no side effects or anything - they eeven helped me drop a few pounds from this disgusting whale body I have been stuck in since DS).

KangarooCaught: Will think about the childminder. But not sure it will work for DS, either.

It seems like he just is an awkward child. Gives me absolutely nothing to be proud of (apart from his beaming smiles to anyone else but me.. he has made the day of many a cashier). Not yet walking, not really saying anything and getting more and more attached to his dummy, which I used to use only for sleeps, but I now cave in and give it him during daytime when he whines and whines, because I don't know how you are supposed to cope with that.

Sounds to me that there is something about your lifestyle which is preventing you from seeking help. Something needs to change in order for you to be able to get the help you need. The talking therapy you've had in the past doesn't sound like it went deep enough - if you have lifelong depression, you need to get to the root of it and this will take a lot of time and commitment from you.

Some of the things you say about your DS make me feel worried for his own mental health, and the development of his personality. Blaming your DS's personality for the lack of joy in your relationship with him could be massively damaging to his emerging sense of self. Be careful. You need to do everything you can right now to ensure he is getting some positive connection with an adult - if this can't be you, please arrange for some decent childcare while you get yourself sorted.

If the meds don't do you any harm, then I would strongly suggest you start taking them again.

This isn't just about you any more, but about the quality of your relationship with you son, whose very life is in your hands. Please take care of yourself so you can take care of him.

Finding the 'right' CM for ds might be worth pursuing - are you in one place long enough?

Ds won't be probably talking until he's 2 or older, and they can get frustrated by not walking or talking at 14m, hence the toddlerdom!

Maybe it's your PND talking or maybe your rose tinted view of what a child at that age can do - I certainly had no clue! Smiling at cashiers is lovely. I bet too that he likes songs, peek-a-boo, being tickled, muddy puddles, splashing in the bath - all these are lovely moments - amongst, for sure, the tiredness of being a mum!

How about joining an online community like Toddler Toddler on FB for ideas of fun things to do with ds? (as well as here of course) And maybe write down somewhere, and pin it up so it's visible, 5 things that ds did that made you smile/good effort that day e.g. giggles when blowing raspberries, a cuddle when curled up on the sofa, showing you something he's found etc. It's too much expectation and maybe the wrong mindset if you want ds to 'make you proud'.

I know that my thinking's warped. But it's more frustrating trying your best every day when all these other babies around (we try to see the antenatal group people and their babies from time to time) you seem to sleep well and hit all their milestones early. You're left feeling like both you and your child are some kind of failures (and you've had a good hand at making him a failure). Well, I should have known better than have a child with another sensitive and cautious soul. I'm so scared I will damage him (hence talk about adoption). I'm very clued up on attachment and similar theories (embarrassingly enough, I am actually a professional in the area), so know exactly what not to do, but it's very hard staying sane and logical when you're up for hours in the night and whined at every day. Rationally I know he is frustrated, but I also feel persecuted by him. I guess this is why I am certifiably "insane".

I know I can't keep going back and forth between my parents' our house forever, but it seems like the best solution right now. DS knows them and I can actually have some child free time every day (like now.. dad has taken DS to shop). I have literally no-one back home. I could look for a CM, but he/she would probably still charge for period's we would spend at grandparents' (will definitely come in the summer for at least a month or two.. and DS would probably need to settle in again).

I know it's an excuse, but I have not been writing down DS's progress (not that there has been a huge amount of stuff) after last summer, because we lost his baby book in the move (it's somewhere in a box with a lot of more stuff I have been looking for). Feels almost symbolic in a way. He does do some nice stuff, but because I feel so frustrated, tired, hopeless and angry, I can't really appreciate it. If DS blows raspberries I just think it's a bit of a poor effort really, and if he wants to cuddle (he literally climbs on me like a little monkey), to me it just means that he is being clingy (I am a monster). I just do not like babies and can't wait for him to be at an age when you can converse and, say, watch a movie together (...monster, monster, monster...)

Agree with everything else that everyone has already said but in addition - if you just stopped your citalopram without weaning it may be that withdrawal is making your irritability even worse.

With Ads you need to reduce the dose slowly rather than just stop. I dont for one minute think that this is totally responsible for what you are feeling but it could be playing some part.

Everything you have written screams out depression to me. You are not a monster you are ill - but you do need help - for your sake and your little boys. x

You are not a monster. Being a professional has no bearing on your ability as a mother. It's an entirely different ball game because you are immersed in it on another level completely. This is especially true when you are suffering, what sounds like, severe depression.

I also think that withdrawal could be makin your situation worse. Please get a referral to a psychiatrist to discuss medication. May I ask what meds you have tried before?

Do your parents know how you are feeling - can you talk to them about it. I feel sure theymust know something is wrong an must notice how irritated you are by your little boy. Does your DP know? What is his view of the situation.

I agree that you are depressed and can't find joy in anything (not even your child) and so need help, because as others say, you will prevent healthy emotional development in your son. I'm sorry I don't mean to sound judgemental but you must know that what an insecure attatchment pattern between you and your son, could affect him through his life span.

PLEASE take the meds and get whatever help you can, so that you can be the mom that I'm sure you want to be for your son. When you have depression you feel empty and flat and have no interested in anything. You need to be able to talk to someone about how you are feeling.

Sending you warm wishes and hoping that you can get the help you need.

Yes, I agree that it was foolish just coming off the citalopram like that. They seem to have helped unlike the fluoxetine and venlafaxine I have used for past depressive periods. Will start taking it today.

My parents know how I feel, so try to support me the best they can. Mum has even offered to do nights. (As if he knew that) DS slep better last night (I hope I don't jinx it!). I did not, though. Still kept looking at the clock wondering how long I would be able to sleep before the random staying-up marathon of late would start. Feel a bit better and hopeful now that he has slept better, but also know that my mental health should not hang on DS's tiny shoulders.

DP knows about my feelings, so ends up supporting me to the total detriment of his work (entrepreneur, works at home). This is another reason I have come here. To give DP time to work. I know it's no long term solution, but trying to spend an 8 hour period alone with DS would not be healthy for me or DS.

Regarding psychotherapy, sadly I know exactly what my issues are, but it does not really help. I just seem to have very little energy to put in anything else than running my body, and taking care of a baby/toddler demands absolutely tons of it. I have had my iron, thyroid, etc. levels checked to it's nothing medical, as such.

Toys I feel that you need to know two things

1. A lot of your negative feelings towards your ds are your depression talking, including many things that you may not recognise as such, such as anger, resentment, disliking him

2. It is ok to like children better once they get a bit older. A friend of mine is like that, she is a fab and wonderful mum but only really enjoyed dc3 as a baby. The first two she started to relax once they could talk. it is not a crime. Motherhood is not something everyone was born to love automatically!

Just read your latest post, and that's good to hear Toys Your mum and OH sound supportive too.

I'm sure you've considered this, but how about a 'throw everything at it' approach to work with the medication?

Is you diet supporting you against your pnd? This article summarises influential factors and suggests a Mediterranean diet, high in omega 3 fatty acids, selenium, folic acid, but I'm guessing you could also take supplements.

PND support group?

Documenting the positives re ds.

Something interactive with ds, not just m&B group where you sit and compare, but a group where you and he do stuff together alongside others like Tumbletots, Jinglebabes, Messyplay

Finding a CM so you have some 'me' time away from ds, a couple of mornings a week.

Go back to work p/t?

And there will probably be things you yourself know would be beneficial or that others will suggest. I had undiagnosed pnd for 9 months, and it was the worst time of my life, so can only have an inkling of how you are feeling, but ime taking steps to nurture your mental health is a kind of medicine in itself.

I try to think it's the illness, and that it's not me being a monster, but it's hard. I just don't understand how everyone else can cope.. How do you not collapse in a heap at the thought of looking after a small child who whines and whines all the time?

I have to say that my diet's not the best at the moment. As I don't have much time or energy to cook when DS is around, I just make him something quick and end up snacking on crap all day, because I don't dare go to the kitchen to make a sandwich (that would start DS crying and I just can't listen to it), and because I feel so exhausted and in need of an emotional lift (sugar rush). I have still got a stone and a half to lose from DS, and that is going nowhere. I look as frumpy and horrible as I feel. Like a non-person. Just a badly functioning baby-care machine.

I know hobbies and baby groups would be good, but because DS still has 2 naps on most days, it's really hard to do any kind of activity with him. Taking him anywhere while he is tired is totally futile (he will hardly ever nap in a buggy now). I just end up walking around town with him and going into cafes. That bores the hell out of him, and you can just see the excitement in his eyes when he sees children in a cafe, so feel like I am depriving him, but nothing I can do about it just now. Don't have a car, so a lot of those groups I would have to take the bus, which seems too much of an effort now (what if I have to fold my buggy, DS starts screaming with boredom, etc...). Excuses, excuses...

There are no PND support groups where I live (that I know of), but would love to go to one. I hate the baby groups where everyone is sooooo happy being a mum and they love their little perfect angels. I have literally nothing to say to these people. Our minds just don't meet on any level.

I have been thinking about pt work, but have always had problems while working (have burned out in every single job I've ever had.. I just cannot switch off even at home, stressing about which things I could have done better etc.). Great, aren't I! Total crap.

Don't convince yourself that everyone else is coping better than you. That's another thought distortion from the depression.

I can relate to the snacking instead of eating properly. Do you think carrying your ds in a wrap would help, so you have both hands free to make something to eat?

ToysRLuv I didn't bond with my son. Difficult birth yada yada yada......

My friends had children same age as my son and they all reached milestones before my son, could swim before my son, their relationships with their kids were close blah blah blah.

I felt so SHIT

Looking back on the whole thing(13yrs) , I had bloody post natal depression! I didn't know it at the time.

At the time I just thought I didn't like my son- he cried ALOT and I couldn't meet his needs or why else would he be crying?

He seemed like an alien, do you know what I mean?

Fast forward..... I still struggle to maintain a bond between myself and my son but I don't feel desperate about it anymore. I cut myself some slack ToysRLuv. He IS a difficult boy- it's his personality but he is also vulnerable because of it.

So what am I trying to say? I think I didn't bond with my son because I was suffering post natal depression and his crying exacerbated the situation and he is that nature anyway but we have a better relationship now. There is hope. Take all the help offered and try to find less excuses why you can't do things.

Take him to to the baby group, just GO . Don't think about it just GO

You need the company and you might find someone else who feels the same as you.

You do sound depressed, and it sounds like you just need to start somewhere to break out of the cycle. Imagining that you have to change everything or else nothing will get better is a load of self-defeating tosh. Ever journey starts with a single step - an old saying, but true. Just start behaving in a very slightly non-depressed way, a little bit at a time, and you will realise that actually, you can do it. I don't think this approach will get you out of your low mood completely, but I do think it might pick you up to a point where you feel you are more capable of doing something about it. Some suggestions - get a haircut, shave your legs, put some makeup on, have a shower and get dressed before you have breakfast, tidy one room in your house (or one corner of a room, if your house is messy).

And start, for 10 minutes at a time, just giving your son total undivided attention, where you don't lead him in any way, you just observe and respond to him. Try to be aware of your thoughts, but just be^ with him for that 10 minutes. Put your expectations and judgements to one side - they will still be there, but just acknowledge them, and continue being with him, playing with him and responding to him. Set a timer, and try it for a few days in a row. You will probably find it hard, but I'm certain this will (after a bit of practice) help you to find your connection with him.

And you're not a monster, but your depression is! It won't be around forever, you're weathering the storm, and you will overcome it. One step at a time.

Just put DS to bed (hope he will sleep well tonight). Thanks again, everyone, for your kind responses. I will have to think about stuff.. Just feeling so out of energy.

Sadly, I don't think DS would like being in a sling while I cook (hates being restricted like that and would quickly get bored with me just standing there chopping up stuff). It's more a case of bunging him in a highchair in the kitchen with lots of snacks and pray he is hungry. You also need to engage with him every second and pick up stuff from the floor for him until he goes nuts (within 10 mins). Such a fuss. I just can't do it every day. Now that DF is cooking lunch for us I get at least one fairly healthy meal a day, but the rest of the day I end up eating all kinds of stuff (today even sank so low as to binge on sweets and throw up while DF and DM were out with DS). Will try to go out tomorrow and will also try to avoid sweets (but have an enormous craving for them.. it's like they are my only pleasure in life just now, and it's hard to let go of that).

And I know exactly what you mean by "alien". Bibbidee. I feel a bit like that about DS even now. When he was born, he even looked like an alien. Not at all how I though my baby might look.

Toys, it sounds like you really are having a crappy time. I am recovering from PND and I so understand how hard it is to do anything, even stuff you know might make you feel better. When you go home, is there any possibility that your parents could come back with you and help you access some services? You may have gone down these lines before, but my health visitor used to come weekly when I was bad. She also referred me to Homestart and I am going to start going to a PND support group soon. She also referred me to Surestart and their workers offered to take me to a couple of baby groups so I could get used to the whole "what do I do if I have to fold the buggy on the bus thing". I felt like a childcare robot and worried my little DS would be affected, but he really is a cheery soul who has now settled into nursery twice a week (after a tricky start, they called me the first day after an hour to say come back!) and I do so enjoy him now he is talking and doing more stuff that I can understand is fun. I felt like a real idiot for having PND, particularly as I have a psychology degree and am an occupational therapist, but it really can get anyone. At the risk of sounding prescriptive I think you should put work on the backburner, if the bus feels too much, then adding to your stress by trying to juggle childcare and a job will really blow your circuits. I have had nearly eight months off now and am just starting to feel like I could work. I'm wishing you all the best with your recovery, it won't always feel like you are wading through treacle.

socialhandgrenade:

HV did get me a referral to counselling and to a childrens' centre where DS started doing a few days a week. It did not work out as he became clingly and distressed at home (day and night), and did not really settle in (not eating or sleeping there). Also, the staff made me attend parenting classes disguised as "fun" (DS is a bit shy so did not like it) for mother/father and child. A lot of toss aimed at total idiots, and I felt as if they had no respect for my education (as I have said, it is in this very area, so I am not short on knowledge.. it's the daily practicalities I need help with). They were also trying to get me to do cc on DS (then 11 months), which I am against for a baby that young (again, because I have a research based professional opinion on it). They implied that because there were other people in need of help they would chuck DS out as soon as his sleeping got better (which was the main reason for referral.. and ironically had gotten worse since he started), and that they perceived me as "uncooperative". I pulled DS out there right then and have not regretted it.

HV was not best pleased with me (although has not really said it), and because we have moved further away from HV's clinic we never see her anyway.

Toys, sorry not to have checked in on you. I can sympathise with you about having tried stuff like Surestart and found it just made it worse. I tried a crèche at the local gym to try and be a good girl and exercise to lift my mood and give myself a break when my DS was 22 months and found the same - really unsettled him and I didn't try leaving him at daycare for months. But 5 months down the line, I've started him at a nursery and apart from the shaky start I mentioned, he's been fine. So it may be worth another go in the future? During the 5 months where I'd ruled out any daycare outside the home, I did a nanny-share which actually was not much more expensive than nursery, it was £4.80 per hour. I don't know if that is a possibility for you, but just wondered if it was worth mentioning in case you hadn't considered it. Hope things start lifting for you soon.