5:2 Thread No. 80: "I am controlling what food I eat; it is not controlling me" (hat-tip to IamBlossom)

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Mosely's TDEE Calc - Exercisers:Use 1 activity level below what you think
Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
(optional) Guide Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol Calc: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate
Are You Addicted to Carbs Mosely’s Quiz

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.

It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.

• Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss

Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

5:2 FD Recipe Thread
Post your own too !

5:2 / IF Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis re the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

I’m the same 43. Although the last few mornings I’ve fell head first into the biscuit tin, Cookie Monster style. But usually I don’t eat before 12pm.

Managed a FD today! Had nothing all day, then leek and potato soup for dinner. Planning an early night to avoid a) eating and b) killing my bickering children. The oldest two are driving each other, and me, insane! The youngest isn’t sleeping atm. Maybe that’s why I’ve had 3 awful NFDs? Onwards and upwards now though!

Well done to summer, cake, 43 and anyone else fasting today. We’re almost there!

Well done, Maz powering through all that
As a non-food reward, treat yourself to earplugs, so the sprogs don't drive you nuts !

duck That wardrobe clearout is one of your rewards for all the hard work over many months
Now you've all that empty wardrobe space to fill with new outfits

Summer Breakfast works for some folk, not for others
See what suits you best.

However, avoid a sugary breakfast and include protein
e.g.

• eggs in some form / bacon & mushroom open sarnie / Greek or Skyr yoghurt with chia seeds or flaked almonds & berries / natural pnut butter (no sugar or palm oil( on wholegrain or rye toast
• Swap to porridge (not the instant, flavoured kind) instead of cereal and try almond milk instead of cows milk, to lower GI and calories
• Cut out fruit juice or dried fruit

43 You'd probably like full-fat Greek yoghurt, which is luxuriously filling and fine as a sensible portion, say with berries, flaked almonds & cinammon

goblin You might find single FDs easier, especially if you've had a break away from fasting and your body may need to adapt again

Not long to go, fasters.
Stay focused ... and (our FD mantra) you can have it tomorrow

Well done maz on nailing your fd today, it is difficult trying to do this on a lack of sleep... how are you getting on cake & summer ?

I'm slightly over today at 609 but I'm hailing that a success. Funnily enough bcf it was 2 spoonfuls of full fat Greek yogurt that made up the extra calories, I adore ff Greek yogurt and my current favourite is lidl's 'milbona' it is delicious I have to be very disciplined not to keep shoving spoonfuls into my mouth!

Well done everyone, I'm going to join you maz in an early night. Hope your kids settle down for you....

Well done, 43 609 is fine

Well done Maz and 43! Kitchen closed on around 560! SO pleased with myself and this despite a cheeky fish finger from DS's plate at lunchtime! Had baked salmon fillet for dinner with lots of roasted romescu cauliflower, mushrooms and some other random veg, lemon juice, salt and pepper. Was going to add a scrambled egg but with all the vegetables my plate was full (I use a side plate like the kids).

In answer to your question Summer I find now that I don't need breakfast and when I have it I can't easily stay under so I tend not to bother most days.

BCF thank you, good point - I might split the days up now that school has started and childcare is not so much of an issue, and see how I go.

I managed to finish the day on 660 (it was a B2B rather than normal FD). I'm lying in bed with a very empty stomach now, though. I'm going to try to sleep ASAP so I stop thinking about it. I also miss breakfast on all FDs and most NFDs. I was just interested in how other people tackle it! Well done everyone for today!

Well done, goblin, summer
You both nailed it.

You can’t beat a cheeky fish finger!

I love Lidl’s Greek yogurt 43. A generous blob over frui, drizzled with honey is velvet heaven.

Weigh day today and even after 3 calorific NFDs, I still managed to lose a pound. That’s a relief! I’ll draw a line under it and move on.

My youngest slept through last night! Sadly, my sleep was disrupted by my eldest. I swear they take it in turns! Still, packing a 10 yr old back to bed is infinitely easier than a toddler, so I’ll call it a win.

Planning on scrambled egg with chorizo and courgette for lunch. Still cooking on a camp stove and washing dishes in my bathroom sink. When will this renovation ever end? I haven’t had a proper kitchen since May!

In other news, it’s the DCs’ school fete today. Mission: avoid the cake, or at least moderate my consumption!

Enjoy your weekend folks!

Well done on your SV Maz
Nailing that Friday FD, instead of a 4th NFD, probably made the difference

Excellent sv maz hope you manage to successfully avoid the cake think of all the poo crumbs

Weigh in today and my hormonal binge has tipped me back into the 12s it tantalisingly STS for a couple of seconds then flipped over into the 12s, hey ho, I deserved that. Going Dr's in a couple of weeks so might ask about controlling / regulating my hormones then, something has to give or I'll never get this last stone off.

Out for Thai food and drinks with a friend tonight so need to be sensible, skipped breakfast and will just have a salad / some yog and fruit and save my calories....

Hope everyone has a good weekend

Hi everyone,
I’m creeping back in (as discreetly as I can with my size 18 backside) and in need of either a stern talking to and/or some tips for developing self-control!
I’ve been on and off this wagon for three years and am utterly fed up of myself.
I unofficially gave up smoking a few weeks ago. Unofficially because I ran out of fags and didn’t want to buy any more and I thought if I told everyone (including myself) I was giving up, I would self-sabotage and go straight to the shop to buy a pack.
I’ve had two slips, both when I’ve been in the company of smokers and feel the only way I’ll be able to stop myself smoking is to not be around anyone smoking.
I haven’t really craved cigarettes at home which has been a big surprise but has made me think that’s because food is my real addiction and that habit is constantly being fed (literally!!).
I can’t do moderation when it comes to food - when I attempt a FD, I have to try and hold off as long as possible before consuming any calories but as soon as I have anything, it opens the floodgates and I then overeat.
I desperately need to change my relationship with food and really need to develop some self-control/motivation.
I’m going to read the op and rest of the thread now but thanks for letting me offload

Welcome back, clutter
Do you think some counselling about food and understanding why you feel out of control would help ?

If that's not possible, then planning each day in advance and using mfp for NFDs too ?
You seem to need some structure, or training wheels to form new longterm habits

Clutter - massive well done for giving up the cigs!
I gave up 8 years ago, one of the best things I ever did

BigChoc - thank you for the welcome (and not for the first time )
Yes, I probably do need some form of counselling (relating to many areas of my life!) but don’t quite feel ready to open that can of worms. As I’ve previously had success with this WOL, I’m hoping I can figure out some of my weird food issues myself (via the internet!) and make a start on dropping some of the excess weight. I know that’s not a long term solution but I need to regain some kind of control.
Yes, I definitely need structure and that’s what I’m going to start right now. Going to make a meal plan for the week and keeping my fingers crossed that I didn’t order a whole load of crap in this afternoon’s food delivery!!!
MrJolly - thank you! I really don’t feel like I deserve that though because I’m so convinced I won’t be able to resist when I go out with my smoker friends. Fortunately (or not!), that doesn’t happen very often so I won’t think about it for now.

WIth junk, as with cigarettes:
don't buy it and don't stay around people consuming either.
Any people in your household who absolutely have to, can go well away outside until they finished their fix of either

Food delivery was better than I thought - I must have subconsciously got back on the 5:2 wagon yesterday when I was placing the order

BigChoc - I have a 16yr old who will eat healthily, under duress but can also consume an astounding amount of junk. I did have a conversation with him quite a while ago, telling him I wasn’t going to buy any more junk with the weekly shop and if he wanted it, he was welcome to go to the shop to buy it as and when he liked. That seems to have gone by the wayside but he was totally onboard with it at the time so will reintroduce that.
Also, I’m a childminder and am constantly making food for my mindees. Whilst I try to give them healthy and balanced lunches/snacks, there’s definitely room for improvement. I’ll look up some healthier recipes to substitute the not-so-healthy biccies!!

Gah! Did I kill the thread?!

First FD today - anyone else fasting today?

Hi Clutter !

I don’t think you killed the thread - it’s usually pretty quiet on weekends as less people are fasting. I get your challenges with your job and 16 yr old. I’ve found the summer hols really tricky watching the kids wandering round with crisps and ice cream! Well done for starting over though, if this WOL works for you I’m guessing you’ll start to see results pretty quickly.

iam I’m thinking of you on your walk, it’s a glorious morning in London today.

borris are you out there? Are you going to fast with me tomorrow? Please don’t get demotivated.. you can so do this. Same goes for you 43 getting checked out at the drs sounds like a good plan though... blasted hormones!

Mixed week for me.. got my 63 on Friday (yay!) then totm arrived and I’ve bounced up a whole kg (boo!) My eldest starts secondary tomorrow, then I might finally get back into some kind of routine.

Enjoy your Sundays everyone. xx

Hi clutterfree I'm fasting today too. Don't worry about killing the thread, noone kills these threads, they are strong, robust and VERY VERY helpful!!

I have a lot of weight to lose and what i s really helping me is avoiding, as far as possible, sugar and refined carbs (plus I don't drink alcohol anyway). If I stick to non-processed wholefoods AND don't snack at all the sugar/carb cravings subside, as does any desire to overeat. Maybe this could help you? If I eat refined stuff all sense of normal appetite/fullness after a meal can vanish and the desire for sugar ceep back in.

Old eating habits are hard to change but you've made a great step rejoining here. Changing the snacks you prepare for the children to healthier ones sounds like a great idea, as does getting your DS on board. Plan your FD food and stick to it. Drink LOTS of water. Lots of us find a teaspoon of marmite helps if you feel a bit light headed or tempted to stray off planned food. Good Luck! and keep posting, there's lots of good support and advice here.

Thanks, both!

Stircrazy- I have at least 4 stone to lose so I’m hoping the first one comes off fairly swiftly. I’d love to lose 2 stone by the end of Feb.
Yes, it’s hard to avoid temptation when you’re making a million after school sandwiches for the ravenous pack of schoolies

Clearskies- thanks for the tips I’m definitely trying to avoid snacking. Good luck with your FD...what’s on the menu? I’m making a lasagne for when my mum comes this evening but I wil fill my plate with salad and maybe a little spoon of lasagne .

Well done on the 63 kg milestone, stircrazy
Ignore the totm nlip - it is fake gain, just retained water due to hormones.

Avoid the totm munchies ... and then the FD after totm ends should see a whoosh of water, so you will soon be back below your milestone.

Good luck clear You are doing so well
Those new longterm healthy habits are really important

As you drop each stone, your TDEE reduces a little, so your portion size will need to gradually adjust to this.
One way that helps some folk:
have an NFD every 1 or 2 weeks on which you eat to the TDEE of yopur goal weight

clutter As you lower your starchy carb portions, boost lean protein to feel fuller for longer
Fish, also eggs are especially filling

As clear says, our most important tip is NO snacking, ever
Snacks between meals - even "healthy" snacks - keep insulin raised all the time, which increases overall appetite & calories for the day
as well as keeping your body switched more to fat storage rather than fat burning.

Don't fall for the idea of allowing snacks on weekends or vacations, because it means the snack habit is still there, physically & psychologically.

If you want an NFD treat - cake, biscuits, ice, lattes, crisps, sweets etc - have it only as part of a meal

Also, try to reduce food treats to one sensible portion every other NFD, so on 3 days per week.

What helps:

• If you feel tempted, immediately clean your teeth - it really discourages nibbling for a while
• Distract yourself with an activity, e.g. go for a walk, tidy / clear out a wardrobe, do an art / craft
• Give yourself regular non-food rewards: e.g. hairdo, new nail polish, face mask, bubble bath, dance in the kitchen to your favourite tune listen to new music, watch new video etc

Thanks for the tips

I think I’ve got to try and separate the food cravings from hunger in my head. I read so many useful tips on these threads about hunger and how you’re not going to keep over from not eating for a few hours etc and that really helped me to push through and stick to the plan.

Cravings, on the otherhand, seem to be a whole other ball game for me and maybe that’s what I need to concentrate on to make this work...off to google

keel over, not keep over!!