5:2 Thread No. 73: Go up a gear and enjoy life in the Fasting Lane. Let science boost your performance.

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.

It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.

• Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss

Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

5:2 FD Recipe Thread
Post your own too !

5:2 / IF Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabete UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis which explains the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a strict fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

Thanks for the tips talkin and BCF. I'll be travelling up Monday morning then at the con all day, hotel overnight, more con on Tuesday then heading back Tuesday evening. I should be fine to have nothing until dinner time on Monday as will be busy, not sure what the plans are for dinner. Ideally I'll be able to just grab some salad bits and cooked chicken from a supermarket to eat in the hotel.

43 that curry sounds amazing, and a proper winter warmer. I think I've got a pot of rendang paste in the cupboard, but from scratch is always nicer!

Is it quite normal for your tastes to change? Finding foods too salty or too sweet?
Oh yes
because you are finally waiting until you are truly hungry to eat and your body is able to judge which bits of your food are the best true fuel

BBC / ICM Poll in Wales found far more people think Brexit will be negative, not positive- for the Welsh economy, way of life, their own finances

http://blogs.cardiff.ac.uk/electionsinwales/2018/03/02/the-bbc-icm-poll-brexit/

Oops meant to post this for the freezing 5:2ers:

The late great Bob Hope:

“It's so cold here … that politicians have their hands in their own pockets.“

Several folk in the Uk Emailed me about their frozen pipes , broken boilers
Hope no 5:2ers are suffering that

Check your pipes & heating everyone ! Freezing FDs in puddles of water are really grim

was going to do a fast today but after a very bitter cold walk to work had a hot choc and marshmallows when I got here. So then though ahh well I'll just do a fast tomorrow instead. I just wasn't feeling the love for it.
Now after lunch I'm feeling far too full, bloated and slow.
Talk me round and tell me to just pull my socks up and not feel sorry for myself.

For those struggling with what to eat on NFDs, wanting to improve their habits:

Delic healthy recipes and attractive-looking dishes by Chrissy Freer (nutritionist):
http://www.taste.com.au/search-recipes/?q=Chrissy%20Freer

mrsJ This is the toughest weather for FDs, but you are strong enough for anything

Make the rest of today sensible - no more sweet / carby junk or alcohol - and plan your Saturday FD
I got in the weekend FD habit in my early 5:2 days, because my weekends were sabotaging a hard week's work

I am not fasting today : had a small baguette sandwich for lunch
BUT
Am being very careful about what micronutrients my food has : ie no junk
And NO SNACKING
And drinking plenty of tea
So that when I have pizza for supper I stay within TDEE

What a week, had decided on 16:8 all week due to half marathon at the weekend only to be told today it's cancelled due to the weather! That's my weekend plans scuppered as we'd booked 2 nights in a hotel as well.

I will now have a FD on Sunday and as my long runs will now only be 5/6 miles I'm hoping the exhaustion I was having will no longer be a problem.

Well done to all your SV and NSV and keeping going in this freezing weather I must admit I have given way to temptation this week kidding myself I was carbo loading for the race.

Hello - can I join you? (I've been on MN since 2003, but have NCed for this thread )

I've been dieting on and off for the past 20 years. And all that ever happens is I lose a stone, then put a stone and a half on. I'm now at 18st 5lb and think I've tried everything ... WW, low fat, low carb, food combining, low GL, juicing, cabbage soup, personal trainer, Paul McKenna, hypnotherapy, Team RH, straight calorie counting, even pills.

I tried 5:2 just after the documentary came out, but I only tried twice, and failed both days, so kind of decided it wasn't for me. But I'm trying again as I believe in the science and want the non-weight loss medical benefits too.

I've been doing it three weeks - BUT I haven't lost ANY weight. Has anyone else been through similar? I would have thought with so much to lose that it would have come off easily. I'm eating to TDEE on the other days, limiting alcohol to only a couple of times a week, and haven't had a particularly bad diet in the past 10-12 years anyway (in terms of getting my 5 a day, cooking from scratch, hardly any processed foods, etc).

I am perimenopausal (early 50s), so realise that weight loss is slower, but I wonder if my metabolism is a bit wrecked. I calorie counted religiously for 6 months at a stretch for the past two years and I lost a pound a week for the first 3 months, then nothing for the next 3. I think my body adapts. During this time, my heart rate was consistently 10 beats a minute less when not losing weight, and that seems to be the case now on FDs too. Am I metabolically adapted?

I am 3-5 pounds lighter after each FD, but at the beginning of the following week, all that weight loss has disappeared.

Can anyone advise? Should I perhaps try 4:3 for a bit? Or cut my calories further on NFDs?

BlueBelle
Presumably the hotel in Bath will let you use the booking another day not stalking you, my colleague just posted almost the same on his FB

Fartoofat
Chances are you are eating a lot more than you realise ....
(according to this news story www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/02/19/fat-britain-average-person-eats-50-calories-realise/ most people eat 50% more calories than they think)
Start using MFP and accurately measure everything you eat and drink.
Do not change it, just track it for a week or so.
Do not fast, just think about eating healthy foods and see what you are doing.
THEN
Work out your sedentary TDEE and try this
Monday = 500 calories
Tuesday = TDEE less 10%
Wednesday = like Tuesday
Thursday = like Monday
Friday = TDEE
Saturday = relax
Sunday = TDEE
NEVER count back exercise calories
try not to snack EVER
And see how that goes

Blue - oh that’s utterly rubbish. Have they pursponed it? All that hard work you’ve put in too. Gutted for you, and the hotel room too. Was your even in the SW? There is one kinda close to me that I saw was cancelled for this weekend.

FarToo - hello, hopefully BCF will be along to advise you soon. Are you using MFP or a similar app on NFDs to calculate calories?

Event not even. And I was referring to the one Tip is talking about

It was to be a weekend in Bath but they have very kindly said that due to the exceptional circumstances we will get a full refund, which I thought was very kind, takes the sting out of it a bit

Far too.

Before I started 5:2 I spent 2 weeks calorie counting and writing everything down. I didn't diet in this time. Then look at what your eating and see what can be an easy change. I.e not eating great for breakfast and lunch or eating 1 scoop of ice cream not a whole tub (I was so guilty of this) I was so surprised how many calories I ate.
I found that in week 3 I lost weight just reducing calories to normal. Then week 4 I didn't loose any so started 5:2.

Thanks all. I have had a paid subscription to a calorie-counting app since 2006 - so I know exactly what I'm eating and am definitely not over-estimating.

I will however try two days at TDEE less 10% and the no snacking. I am a bit of a snacker (boot camp - another thing I've tried - taught me to never go more than 3 hours without some food - aargh!)

Fartoofat
OK, another tactic - what is your TDEE at a BMI of 22 and a year older than you are ....
work within that TDEE and then the same formula ....

also, definitely ditch the snacking
once you get into the land of menopause (I'm 52, bigchoc is older)
reducing diabetes risk is essential

Do you actually weigh all of your food, using a set of electronic scales?
And do you also weigh all snacks?
just that my snack pot of nuts and raisins turned out to be 400 calories the other day

Kitchen closed at 720. I have obeyed all the no snacking etc rules apart from a couple of strawberries after dinner that were just begging to be eaten .
Due to the snow and poorly children I've not managed any exercise/running for the last 2 days and feeling very twitchy! Won't be able to get out tomorrow as DH is working but hoping to get a couple of HIIT fat blasts in. Couldn't today as both youngest have been very clingy with high temperatures bless them.
Anyway NFD tomorrow and my eldest wants to make and decorate biscuits, so I am planning to taste a couple!
As I'm maintaining and have managed an approximate 700FD and a 1000 mini FD this week - I'm hoping it's ok to have a few treats and some alcohol tomorrow?

I've had a really weird thing happen. I fasted Monday and Wednesday, Tues and yesterday ate weekday healthy. Today I've had a poached egg on protein toast and a 3 bean salad, totalling 440 cals and I am properly full. I don't want any dinner, and even the thought of a treat food isn't appealing. I don't want to eat that little today but am genuinely stuffed! What has happened to me?!

littleladylawyer
Your stomach is shrinking
I look back at meals I used to eat and I wonder how
and if you eat stuff like pulses, your tummy will hit the "full" switch much faster
especially if you have not snacked

Great isn't it
When I am on the debt management threads we find that fasting saves the folks money

TIP it's amazing- I feel silly that I've spent a long time feeling hungry believing that anything more carby than mushrooms is the enemy. I think the combination of low gi and 5:2 has really flicked a switch in me- although I have resisted for a long time I've always craved cakes/ chocolate/pizza, whereas now I don't feel that at all. Not bloated, as if I've over eaten, just satisfied. Amazing!

FD here done. I think about 550 maybe less - huge chicken and veg stir fry. Rest of the family had their's with noodles. And one square of chocolate for me.

Can't wait for NFD tomorrow. Today was harder in the evening as the noodles and the bottle of Belgian beer DH opened looked good.

Oh what a rotten shame about your 1/2-marathon, bluebelle
So disappointing after all your training

lawyer Some people do find 5:2 is like flicking a switch wrt appetite and often fat-burning, i.e. they are particularly suited to 5:2
Our 5:2 rule of thumb is that if you feel full, then stop eating
If you haven't eaten much, it just means your body is burning its stored fat fir fuel, which is what you want if you have excess to lose

So, make the most of this time for easier fat loss and also to develop the healthy habits that you need to keep longterm.

Justterfing I recommend you enjoy your home-made biscuits as your dessert after a meal, i.e. keep the no snacking habit
Also, have the alcohol with a meal and aim for NHS alcohol limits
These 2 adaptations to your planned day are part of developing & keeping healthy habits for life

Welcome, fartoofat

At your starting weight of 18 st 5lb, I would expect rapid initial loss of a few lb per week during the first month at least

The FDs are working for you, as evidenced by losing a few lb afterwards
So, probably the issue lies with the NFDs, but let's think why …

Main possibilities & suggestions

1. Are you losing inches, clothes feeling looser ?

If this is the case, sometimes the scales take a while to catch up, but then you see an SV whoosh

• this might be caused by undigested food, or by the body burning fat, but then retaining water on NFDs, until it suddenly releases the water

==> Check fit of previously tight clothes

2. You are eating more than you think

Most overweight people underestimate calories by up to 50%, because the mind can play strange tricks
Maybe even some calorie bombs you have always eaten and wrongly calculated once.
Or maybe examples like not counting milk & sugar in hot drinks, even forgetting muffins

Maybe your paid App has a bug / screw loose

==> In parallel to your paid App, also mfp everything for 1 full week as a cross-check, even things you "know" the calories of

3. On NFDs, you are around TDEE, but eat a particular food or type of food that your body can no longer process properly, so stores and fat

a) Main possibility is that you have become preT2 - the likelihood increases with the hormonal change of pre-meno & meno - so carbs / sugar
b) You may be very sensitive to sweeteners which can affect gut flora and / or spike insulin and increase fat storage in some people
c) Fizzy drinks in particular, even diet ones,
(Less likely possibilities are sudden sensitivities to alcohol or animal fat)

==> Cut out all fizzy drinks, including diet ones, for 2 weeks
==> Try 2 weeks of daily low carb, within TDEE, still with 2 FDs
Just cut out starchy carbs, but allow beans, lentils, peas, full-fat Greek yoghurt - this is "Mosely's 5:2 Mediteranean low carb"
Totally cut out added sugar, also alcohol
==> If low carb has an effect, get checked for preT2
You may just need a low-medium carb diet permanently, if ore-meno has kicked off

4. TDEE wrongly calculated

==> Use Mosely's TDEE Calc If you exercise, then set activity level to one level below what you think (mosely advice as most people over-estimate exercise intensity / duration)
==> If this gives the same value you already have, then your TDEE is lower than average, see 5), so reduce by 10-15%

5. Your TDEE is significantly lower than usual

TDEE is only a population average - there will be outliers with significantly lower / higher than the theoretical value.
Maybe caused by many years of diets, some extreme, especially if you have taken dodgy diet pills or had weeks on nutritionally inadequate diets like cabbage soup.

These and yo-yoing can accelerate muscle loss and increase fat - the % of lean mass & % fat affects TDEE
It has been proven that people who lose a lot of weight have a lower TDEE & metabolism for a few years
e.g. 12-15% lower for 50 lb+, which graduakky increases to normal over time

I suspect that sometimes yo-yo cycles, frequently regaining the same 1-2 stone, may have a similar cumulative effect,
i.e. maybe losing 1-2 stone several times may have the cumulative metabolic effect of losing say 5 stone

Other common causes:
Pre-meno can change hormones and affect fat storage 10 years before meno happens
Thyroid
PCOS
Prescribed meds, especially ADs
Even changed hormonal contraception

==> Get thyroid checked
==> If you take prescribed meds, discuss with your doctor if any could be causing weight gain and if different meds coukd be suitable
==> Discuss if you have hormonal contraception
==> Gently increase exercise, especially add short bursts of HIIt if you can

• if you are not fit, add walking intervals of 2 mins slow / 2 mins fast on a daily 20 minute walk

==> Keep on with 5:2 - studies by Dr Jason Jung & others indicate that healthy fasting is one of the few ways to repair lowered metabolism and increase TDEE If FDs are a struggle, you should be able to lose OK with 800 FDs at your weight ==> Break this yo-yo cycle - Settle down to the long haul of several months, stick to 5:2 until you get to goal, then go on lifetime fasting maintenance

6. Eating back exercise calories ==> Never do so on FDs ==> On NFDs, never eat back activity calories that any gadget or App tells you. Only account for exercise via TDEE