5:2 Thread No. 73: Go up a gear and enjoy life in the Fasting Lane. Let science boost your performance.

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.

It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.

• Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss

Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

5:2 FD Recipe Thread
Post your own too !

5:2 / IF Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabete UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis which explains the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a strict fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

Thanks BCF and peachy. I don’t expect I will continue to lose at that rate but it has been a nice start.

slinky If you feel too stuffed, always best to reduce what has the least nutrients, which is usually starchy carbs.
I suggest you try omitting the toast, but keep the veg and both eggs - they have excellent quality protein & good fat

I agree, snail I generally recommend keeping any fasted runs to below 40 mins,
as it is usually time rather than distance that affects whether the glycogen stores get too low.
For longer runs, best not to have an empty tum
FDs are excellent for sprint intervals, as these rely more on burning fat stores for fuel, rather than trying to access the glycogen stores, which fasting lowers.

Also, nothing to do with fasting, but all runners should be aware of how steady state cardio - but not sprints - interacts with the immune system:
short runs (20-30 mins) boost it, but for most runners, 90+ mins reduces immune system for 2-3 days
and a hard run of 20k+ can take 2 weeks for the immune system to fully recover.

BCF - I have found I can run on a FD but not on a day after a fast unless I’ve eaten so agree wholeheartedly with what you’ve said.

I’m keeping a close eye on weight and although I did drop slightly under target this week it was literally for a day as I knew I had 2 meals out this week. And one of those days turned into a WAY over TDEE day.

I do like the 2 x 800 fasts but I am totally playing it by ear in terms of either 6:1 or 5:2 at 800. Depending really on weight and meals out for the week.
Also I do weekly measurements to keep a check on waist. When I set that target I knew that was bottom end of my limit with a bit of wiggle room to go up. But have absolutely no intentions to go lower.

Snail - thank you that is really useful info. I think protein lunch is what I will stick with rather than all the carbs DH thinks I should be having. It’s still all very new to me I absolutely would love to go further than 5k but atm that seems to be my limit. I do it in intervals of 30 seconds fast slow as I just can’t seem to get the stamina up for one pace.

Yep, quacking, it is pointless trying to force down stuff other people think you should be eating before a run. You will feel rubbish. Just eat what you are used to. I have seen people advising massive plates of pasta and suchlike - I can barely eat 30g of pasta without feeling huge and bloated so I imagine that would be absolutely horrible to have in my stomach before a run.

duck I recommend you try adding healthy carbs, to increase your stamina and also may to avoid headaches:
brown/red rice, quinoa, sweet potato, rye bread
Start with portions of 80-100g cooked weight, or 1-2 slices rye bread.

Are you eating beans, peas, lentils as Mosely recommends particularly for those doing lower carb ?
These are good for blood sugar, fibre and health

Ii is not just whether you can manage to run on an FD, but whether it is a strain on the system
I recommend you concentrate now on building up stamina & strength and optimising health

So, avoid fasted runs on FDs or on the day after an FD - in both cases when your glycogen is low

I ate TDEE +++++ just for breakfast this morning so I'm definitely on for at least a Mini if not full FD tomorrow. God it was amazing though...

Always a bad idea to have a full tum before any kind of exercise, running or lifting
However, most people find they perform better on longer runs when they eat a few hours earlier.

Sprint intervals are easier to do fasted. So are HIIT or lifting sessions of no more than 60 mins

In your case, you are at the very bottom of your weight range and experiencing headaches
It would be different if you had several pounds to lose and didn't have headaches.

Sounds a lovely feast, bug Sunday mini / FD sounds a good idea

Snail - definitely, I find especially after starchy carbs I swell up now. Can barley move let alone do any cardio.

BCF -
Yes been eating lots of lentils beans and peas daily actually as really enjoy them they are the new normal. Plus got a few new recipes to try this week.

My stamina is not great. It’s still a bit new to me and I do lack a bit of enthusiasm but saying that since getting my act together I’ve ran 50 Miles in 2 months so it all mounts up.
Most I’ve ever done is 40 mins but that was eating loads of crap the day before. Usually 30 mins is my limit.
I’ve got smoked salmon and eggs on my list for this weeks lunches, light but packed with protein.

Re headaches I have actually today booked a eye test as I’m starting to struggle a bit especially with distance. It may not be connected but worth checking out.

That's a healthy NSV re the beans & lentils duck
and as you don't get on with standard starchy carbs, they are supplying you with carbs in a form that suits.
1-2 portions fruit daily is also good, if you don't already

Good idea about the eye appointment - I was just going to suggest that. Great minds

Thanks for the advice BCF. I think 1000kcal fast days is all I can manage at the moment (sleep deprivation is a killer!).

Does anyone find it harder on non-fast days? I can see myself being derailed by just eating everything on my NFDs!

Amazing to see people hitting their target weights and moving into maintaining...

Is anyone else fasting today?

I’m am. Or at least I’m supposed to be but I developed a fever and sore throat late yesterday and today I feel grim.

I did manage scrambled eggs and salmon for breakfast but I’m going to see how the day pans out. If I can eat I will and if I can’t I won’t.

Good luck everyone.

If you have a fever, Fionne don't fast, just keep to healthy NFDs until fever has gone and you feel ok.
Of course, don't force yourself to eat if not hungry, but drink plenty of water

I hope you feel better soon

Had a horrible NFD yesterday, all going well until I went to my friends for a takeaway. Had a reasonable portion of food, worked out calories, ate it, then grazed and grazed on leftovers. Think I probably had double the calories I should have 😡. Why though? Why why? That’s the worst binge I’ve had this year, I could kick myself. I wasn’t hungry, I felt rubbish afterwards and I’ve eaten into the deficit I had such a struggle building in the first place.

pump I am dreadful for picking at leftovers too. Since starting this I put any away as soon as I have finished. Obviously not so easy at a friend's house.
I have to pop up to my parents house today so if I remember I will weigh myself.... Last time I did that was at the beginning of January.
Tomorrow is a fast day... I need to plan my dinner so I am not tempted by other things. At least the family have got their heads around fending for themselves twice a week.

FD for me today!

I have my half marathon next weekend so I have decided to just do 16:8 next week no fasts as I did an 8 mile run yesterday and was exhausted this has now been happening on all my long runs which is a bit frustrating! Yesterday I even had porridge before the run to see if that would make help. still once the run is over, my long runs will only be 5/6 miles so hopefully that will work better with the fasting.

Quack I really sympathise with you as I suffer with headaches as well its a right pain but eye stain will give you headaches, so although I don't expect you want to wear glasses if it helps with the headaches it will be worth it.

Good luck with the half marathon, BlueBelle! I've done a good few of them and good race nutrition is key to good performance. I would certainly eat something beforehand - something that you would normally eat - and think about boosting your energy during the run: if I have a long run I will carry a handful of nuts and raisins with me or I'll use SIS energy gels. Have a trial run with race nutrition beforehand as you don't want to be doing anything new on race day - you never know what effect something is going to have on you.

Blue - that’s amazing your doing a half marathon next week. 16:8 sounds very wise.
Have you been getting good losses with all the excersize your doing?

Woke up with a rasping thirst and could feel the start of headache. I didn’t eat much salt in my evening meal and drank lots yesterday. It better do one as we are going to a kids activity centre today and I will be joining in

Fionne look after yourself today!

Katie - NFD used to worry me a bit when I first started. But I found that some days if I ate too much on a NFD I could pull it back on other NFDs. It’s great tho as it’s really flexible and like a part time diet.

Thanks Snail this is actually my 12th Half, I think that doing 2 FD's and NFD being 16:8 might just be a bit much for me when doing the long runs, do you always have a NFD before long runs?

Quack I am definitely an advert for exercise does not lose weight its what you eat!! Although you are more toned so I probably don't look my weight or am I just kidding myself

Good luck with your half-Marathon bluebelle That's exciting

I recommend those training for long runs do not do FDs, because their glycogen stores will be too low for good endurance performance

Do daily 16.8 or 14:10, no snacks, lots of water and cutting right down on booze and sugary / junky treats

bluebelle I recommend you have your trial run at the same time as the real event, with the same meals before

Also wear the exact clothes, underwear and shoes you intend to wear for the race
as well as any bag with phone, water, gels / fruit / nuts
Anything that rubs or bounces against you can become torture over long runs

If you can, check in advance where loos are at the start < shudders at memories of 6 (working) loos for 1000s of women >

Don't beat yourself up, pumper
Now you know the new habit to learn: Eat what you plan, then stop.

Leftovers are for other people, or other days

Hi everyone, I'd like to join too! It's great to read all the positive stories of pp losing weight, feeling healthier etc I especially enjoyed reading that quackingduck has gone down a shoe size: I'm a 10/44 so would love that result!

So, hubby and I started 5:2 last Monday, with Wednesday and Friday as our 800 cal days, and the rest of the week eating low-carb. We had a full set of baseline bloods done, and were relieved to find neither of us have a sugar or cholesterol problem, so we're approaching this as a way of reducing our bmi (hubby is half a stone overweight, I'm nearly a stone) and hopefully setting ourselves up for a healthier future.

We've been veggie for 4 years but have reintroduced a little meat to help us with our new way of eating. I'm still cooking our usual veggie curry/mixed bean chilli/lentil bolognase for the 6 of us on NFD, but only serving the brown rice/pasta/couscous etc to the kids. So far, we've found it ok, and I've enjoyed feeling a little hungry heading to tea on the FD, rather than ready to start knawing on my arm, as I thought I would feel.

I am feeling incredibly cold though - I do appreciate most of the country feels below zero at the the moment - but I'm still feeling cold with lots of layers, proper fleece, sat in front of roaring fire - is this a side-effect of this way of eating? My bloods did show I'm pretty anaemic and Vit D deficient, so wondered if these are adding to my shivers?

Thanks all for being such a positive community. 😊

Hello Frazzled.

Sounds like this way of eating is right up your street then. It’s great that your DH is also on this journey with you.

Don’t get me started on loosing a shoe size. Not only have I gone down a size I seem to have lost width too so my lovely summer flip flops no longer fit. It’s a royal pain.

Being cold does seem quite normal on this way of life. Blankets, layers and hot water bottles are a must.