5:2 Thread No. 73: Go up a gear and enjoy life in the Fasting Lane. Let science boost your performance.

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.

It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.

• Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss

Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

5:2 FD Recipe Thread
Post your own too !

5:2 / IF Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabete UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis which explains the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a strict fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

That’s a great result MrsJellybum. I’ve only been doing this for a month and have lost ten pounds. After despairing of ever losing weight I’m very happy.

Thank you @Iateallthebread
Well done on your loss.

I feel I've finally found something that works for me and my lifestyle and mindset. I'm an all or nothing kind of girl. I love that I only have to diet 2 days per week
I know things will change as it goes on and I'll need to start calorie counting on NFD but I'm so happy

I’m glad it’s working for you. I find the fact that I can tell myself I can having something tomorrow makes it much easier for me. I found depriving myself of things every day hard work and I’d always become miserable and give up. So far this seems much more substainable.

Fantastic lateall!

Mrsjelly that's bloody great!

Weighed this morning @ 9st 4.5lbs. I've only hit this once before on 6/2/18 so it feels like I've been hovering these past few weeks. However I find if I lose focus even slightly then I so tend to stall as my tdee is pretty low at 1500. The positive is that I haven't gained and a stall is better than that!

*do tend to stall

That’s great purple. Do you have much left you want to lose?

Well done on everyone’s fasts yesterday.

Well done Peachy that’s fantastic.

And MrsJelly, that’s bloody amazing. Well done.

BCF - I’m on medication for my headaches and have been for about a year, I do get them occasionally but normally a couple ibruprofin will clear it but it hasn’t worked the last couple of days. I wasn’t even fasting yesterday.

BCF i wonder if you can settle a difference of opinion between me and DH. Up until now as I’ve been trying to loose weight when I’ve been going for a run I usually do it on a empty stomach as I’ve been doing HIIT. It’s worked well, no issues at all. If I don’t feel quite upto it i will have a protein shake prior.

In the week I really pushed myself but I’d eaten crap the day before and it did seem to fuel me.

As I’m now not looking at loosing anymore DH says I really should be eating prior to running. Is he right?

He’s just a little concerned About me but he’s basing it on himself and what he does (eats loads prior to running) but we are worlds apart as I’m doing a couple of miles per run but he does anything from 13-20 per run as he’s preparing for a marathon.

Thanks lateall - I would like to get down to 8stone so I can fluctuate between 8st-8st 7lbs. This was my weight range 7 long years ago. However I'll be happy to just be back in the 8's. I'm Asian so it would be better for my bmi to be at the lower end.

Weigh in today and have maintained at 11stone. Really really annoyed. I have been starving all week. Weighing and calculating each piece of food and apart from one day have been well under TDEE all week. Two fast days under 500. I'm hoping that I lose a few pounds in one go. I'm only 4 pounds of target ffs

Well done everyone on your losses! Very inspiring.

Well, I have lost the pound which I lost two weeks ago and then gained back last week :). At 10 6lb this morning, down from 10 lb 7lb last week, but the previous week was 10 5lb. Just on the tail end of period now so I'm going to assume it was that and not get too worried as I have been sticking to fast days and eating below TDEE on pretty much everyday, with TDEE set to lower than I think it should be. Starting weight on Jan 6 was 10st 13 lb so have still had significant loss but I suspect I am entering the Plateau of Despondence.

Southeastlondonmum that sounds frustrating. I’m sure you’ll see some positive movement next week as it sounds as if you’re doing all the right things.
Snail the plateau of despondency sounds scary!

Well done on all the SVs everybody and keep the faith those that haven't seen the scales move as much as they would like.

Katie what you are doing sounds about right but I am not sure what is the extra allowance for BF. BCF will be along soon to advise. I think you can allow a further 500 for BF but I might be wrong but I would not include the exercise calories at this point - keep these as a contingency. Welcome to the group.

Purple I too am Asian and was despondent to hear that a lower BMi is better for us - so when I have been at the 24 mark for many years I have been thinking i was in the healthy category when I probably wasn't. Think am about 23 right now and would like to get to 21.

Even after yesterday’s FD I feel so bloated. My totm is approaching though.

I’ve been losing and gaining the same 7lbs for goodness knows how long snail! It’s fristrating, but equally shows that I can maintain. I seem to maintain with an overall downward trend!

Snail - definitely on the plateau of despondency

Southeast - keep with it. I had the exact same 4lbs away from target and it would not shift. Stayed the same for 2 weeks I think. I was calculating everything doing everything right. Then all of a sudden dropped 3lbs overnight.

If you haven’t check your measurements as you may find your loosing inches.

Those that are hovering over the same figures - difficult to be pleased and it's frustrating but least you aren't putting on. I think you'll have a Whoosh south east. Plus It seems the last few lbs to target can be troublesome!

Weighed in today and back up to 59.4 after having reached 58.6 earlier in the week so whilst the range is generally tending downwards weight loss is stalling. So far have only done 2 FDs. Today is a busy day, physically tiring and not sure I can do a FD. Just not in the mindset for it. May just focus on a low carb/mini fast/16:8 type of day. Next week will try get back to 3 FDs in the week.am seriously thinking that one of the FDs when I really don't want to eat may see if I can do a complete fast till the next morning. May get things moving. And once I am physically better (still suffering from shoulder issue) I will restart exercising. Last week I found my old copy of shred and DC and I did a shred session. Took me a few days to recover from that. But would like to restart and stick with it this time.

Thanks quacking. I didn't do measurements which is annoying. But I'm slimmer no doubt

Well done on your SV and a good 1st week, MrsJelly

Well done on your SVs too, bread, purple

Welcome, katie and well done on your SV

BFers have 1000 cals, but can optionally - maybe after EBF - go down to 700, gradually

There is no allowance in TDEE for BFing, so I suggest you keep to your current system for as long as you are losing
but if you sts after a few weeks, then try your theoretical TDEE, which would be about 1730 - 1900

duck It's fine to run fasted on maintenance, but I recommend you have a good meal very soon afterwards

• you are at the lowest recommended limit for waist / height and near the 18.5 lower limit of healthy BMI.

In your particular case, it might be best to leave fasted exercise for NFD mornings, NOT the morning after an FD,
so that you don't start with very low glycogen stores and you can eat well the rest of the day

As I have posted, you must stop losing now, so do move to 800 FDs only - and maybe also go down to 6:1 - and eat more on NFDs
This may indeed be why your headaches are persistent - you may be at a slightly lower weight than is ideal for you.
Don't just look in the mirror; also consider how well you feel, including headaches.

slinky I recommend AGAINST full fasts, if by that you mean an FD on near-zero cals
Especially not with 4:3
It's OK as a very occasional one-off, but zero-cal fasting should not be part of a regular WOL unless under medical supervision / advice

Also, Varady compared results for zero-cals vs various % of TDEE and found that 25% TDEE was the optimum combination for muscle retention and weight loss. Think longterm.

Suggestions to break a plateau:

• If you have a lowish TDEE, try 25% TDEE on FDs, e.g. 400 for a 1600 TDEE

• Do daily 16:8, or 14:10

• Good habits: drink more water, NEVER snack / graze,

• Improve what you consume, not how much
  try 2-4 weeks bootcamp in which you:
  . give up alcohol and fizzy drinks
  . give up sweet junk
  . Reduce portions of starchy carbs

• Add a 3rd FD or miniFD - but be careful you don't eat more on NFDs

• Boost HIIT, either Shred or 2-5 mins Fat Blasts on a few days per week, see 5:2/IF Exercise Thread #33* OP

MrsJelly Many 5:2ers get to goal without having to count on NFDs - as in the original book & Horizon program

Those who need to count are those who have got used to "normal eating" that is significantly more than their body burns
so they need to retrain their habits - and keep to that longterm

Sometimes it's just a matter of mfp highlighting hidden calorie bombs of junk / booze and cutting these,
but sometimes it is portion size, which can be very difficult for someone with a low TDEE in an obesogenic society with huge portions offered everywhere.

Thanks BCF. There's me reading some of the old threads where a few people did liquid fasts and virtually no calories. I won't do these.

My TDEE is 1457 calories so
25% would take me to 365 calories which is so low. If I just have soup and tea/coffee/herbal tea would that be ok. As difficult with anything else.

I have put in sedentary as that Is what I am and the occasional exercise I see as a contingency for when I may go over TDEE other days. But that is still a goal - to up my HIIT/shred. Thanks for the advice.

Maz- on a FD I'm so hungry I could actually eat a table. I'm so happy I admit to see an 11- I started at 13.8.

Hi Katie- I agree it's the only long term solution to a lot of things including weight as the bonus.

Well done iateallthebread! Ten pound in a month is amazing.

Quacking- I always run in a fasted state. I don't eat breakfast at all and always run in the morning. Haven't gone much past 10k though.

Sounds like we have a lot of outstanding whooshes!

Having a very enjoyable NFD. Park run with my 10-yr-old in the best time I've done yet, lovely bacon and blue cheese salad and a proper cup of tea.

'quacking regarding eating before runs - it really depends on the run length in my experience. My distance is half marathon but I have run a full marathon and run around 25-30 km per week. I can get away with fasted runs of around 5km and fasted interval training eg 3mins at 10k pace then 1 min rest then repeat 6 times and so on. I wouldn't do a longer run fasted as I have experienced very unpleasant physical effects when I haven't had the proper nutrition before and after a run: mostly really horrible stomach cramps post-run, headaches and absolute bloody exhaustion. Running on empty on a long distance run is a really unpleasant feeling. I think you have to ensure that your body has everything it needs not just to do the run but also to feel good doing it and to feel good after it. This doesn't mean insane carb loading but just a sensible meal of something protein-rich and healthy before you go. My trainer (who is a triathlon champion, an amazing lady in her mid-50s) says that you should always eat something that you like and that would be normal for you.

Thanks for all the plateau advice! waves to fellow plateau dwellers. It's not so bad here - not as bad of the Pit of Overweight, certainly. But not the sunny uplands of Maintenance Cliffs, either. I've read enough 5:2 experiences to know that this is normal and nothing to worry about so I shall just keep on keepin' on. Oh, and have lost another half inch off my waist so yes, always worth remembering scales don't tell the whole story.

I'm pretty good at having virtually stopped snacking. So just need to keep focusing on more water/more exercise/16:8. I also need to remember to keep reducing my portion size. I keep reducing them but am
Still finding myself stuffed and uncomfortable. So need to keep reducing until I find the right amount. Brain and tummy not quite in sync.

Classic example for brunch today I had scrambled eggs (with 2 eggs), one toast and some sautéed mushrooms. Felt stuffed. Should have reduced the scrambled egg to one egg only and halved the mushrooms and maybe halved the toast. It would have been absolutely satisfying even at half a portion.