5:2 Thread No. 73: Go up a gear and enjoy life in the Fasting Lane. Let science boost your performance.

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.

It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.

• Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss

Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

5:2 FD Recipe Thread
Post your own too !

5:2 / IF Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabete UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis which explains the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a strict fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

Ah, you are a veteran then bluebell! I've decided to train to improve my 10k pace while I'm doing two fast days a week. It means shorter, more intense runs and lots of interval training which I find is very compatible with FDs. I plan to do another half in late summer by which time hopefully I should be at goal weight and doing maintenance.

Welcome, frozen

Cold on FDs ?
+Get active for a few minutes - just walk around the office / upstairs / do a chore.
+Wear a fleecy hoodie
+Have hot Bovril, tea, coffee

Why it happens:
It's quite common on FDs, particularly when starting 5:2, because the reduced amount of food produces less body heat

If you also have cold fingers & toes,
this is because fasting increases the blood flow to bodyfat - ref adipose tissue blood flow in J Clinical Sci

• which helps move it to your muscles where it can be burned as fuel.

Due to this, micro-vasodilation may occur in your fingers & toes to compensate. Hence they may feel cold.

Oops beg pardon, frazzled Wrong specs !

Snail that's a good point as I only do a half once a year so hopefully next year I will be at target and maintaining so no need to worry

FD has been broken went out with DH went to a cafe he was trying to get me to have something to eat I refused but he had a cake and then cut a third off and gave it to me at this point my will power had deserted me and I ate it (carrot cake) but I will still have my fast dinner as planned so probably now a mini......oh well I did try!

Hello, can I join please? As my user name suggests I'm 43 and fat as fuck I'm 5 foot 7 and 14 stone, I could kick myself for getting to this point... my tdee is 1870 so I'm going to round it down to 1800, my biggest issue will be reducing alcohol and snacking, alcohol has been my crutch since my mum died 6 years ago im going to start reading from the beginning of the thread to pick up as many tips as possible, planning my first fast day tomorrow (eek!) Wish me luck, anyone elseen fasting tomorrow?

Hi Forty and welcome.

Quite a few people fast on a Monday so you will be in good company.

That’s a really decent TDEE, you should be absolutely fine on that. I can’t advise on the alcohol as I never drank much even prior to 5:2 now it’s virtually never. But the no snacking rule, it’s hard at first but becomes the new normal after a while. Same with the fasting really you gradually adjust to it.

The no snacking is really worth sticking too, I’ve found it invaluable for not being physically able to overeat now I’ve fully embraced it.

Have you planned what you are having tomorrow? Some of us split the calories between 2 meals and some of us save them all up for one meal but it’s whatever you think will work best for you.

Welcome 43 and stop kicking yourself - it burns very few calories
Let's aim for a name change of KickAssFitat43

Sorry to hear about your mum - you need some TLC and rest, bereavement is devastating
when I lost my mum a few years ago, after several years of her suffering with disability and dementia, I had a psychological burnout and was off sick for 6 weeks, just knackered.

Loss is draining
So, concentrate on building healthy habits to support your body & mind, not just on weight loss

Main tips:

• FDs should be healthy, no booze whatsoever those days, or sweet treats
  Plan your FD menu in advance - easiest just to have lunch & supper, or just supper
  Base FD meals on protein with lots of veg, e.g. fish / meat / beans with salad, stir fry veg, baked veg, curry, stew

• No FD allowance for exercise
  Allow for exercise on NFDs via TDEE - don't eat back calories according to gadgets.

• On FDs, glug a teasp Marmite mid-morning and mid-afternoon, to help avoid headaches or weakness

• Yup NO snacking or grazing ever, FDs or NFDs

If you want a treat, or even wine, fruit, have it as part of a meal
Snacks - even "healthy" ones keep insulin raised, which hinders fat-burning and increases overall hunger & calories comsumed

• Keep within NHS alcohol guidelines every day Important for your liver and many other health factors not to over-indulge. If you need a heathy kickstart, how about Marching Dry into March ?

The body stops burning fat for several hours until it has processed all alcohol first.
Also, the body preferentially stores excess calories from alcohol - and sugary crap - around the waist

• So be sensible about sugary treats too - cake, biscuits, sweets, Danish etc - watch portion size and never more than once per NFD

• Cut back on fizzy drinks, even diet ones and especially Coke / Pepsi - nasty effects on longterm health

• Drink lots of water every day, preferably not fizzy
  Start each day with a glass and keep water with you

• Aim for at least a short walk outside every day
  If you can, build up regular exercise whichever is easiest - home, gym or park

BCF - I bought some Lindor extra dark 90% chocolate today, I’m not sure il like it as I’m not overly fussed on dark chocolate but it will be a great substitute if I do like it.

I have pork belly for tea, very high in calories so that and some veg will take me just over TDEE. I know it’s full of fat but I heard on some tv show a doctor saying fat isn’t the bad guy sugar is. So how bad is pork belly, can I eat it weekly or should it be saved for more occasionally?

Also I just found out I like picalli (sp?) I don’t really eat bread but what else can I do with it? I sometimes have cheese on a FD that would go nice but I’m struggling to think what else? My head says it could make a awesome salad dressing but I’m not sure.

Welcome frazzled and 43. This is a lovely supportive space and I have found it very helpful. I do my fast days on Mondays and Thursdays usually, and I wait until around 6pm to have my single meal, which works very well for me. I did do small lunch and small dinner initially but I found it was much harder for me.

I started off at 10st 13 lb at the beginning of Jan - am 5ft 4in - and am now 10st 6lb. I'm expecting losses to be slower now.

Am very sorry to hear about your hard times, 43. Small steps and take it slowly. Cutting down or stopping booze and snacks is such a great and positive change to make in your life.

Welcome frazzled and 43.

I am fasting tomorrow.

Weighing in the morning, expect to have put on a few pounds as haven't fasted for a couple of weeks properly, by am confident I can put things right with two fds this week. Hoping I will still be under 9 stone though...

My menu will be:

3 water crackers and two hard boiled eggs and miso soup, probably about 3.

Prawn salad about 7.

Early night.

Am also going to attempt a 5km, haven't run for weeks as injured.

duck Pork belly should be fine weekly
Since you are quite low carb, you need fat
Plus lots of veg

I enjoy low carb bread (high fibre, made with almond flour / flaxmeal / soy)
or rye / pumpernickel bread - much better than bread made with wheat, because of the major change in wheat strains since the 1960s
Neither of these cause me bloating or cravings and I find 1-2 thin slices is plenty, with the fibre

Also, sweet potato fries or quinoa are good carb choices for many who feel bloated with rice or pasta.

I’ve seen some high protein rolls in Lidl that are fresh and I’m dying to try them.
I think I like rye bread, it’s very dark isn’t it and very filling?

I’m not a huge fan of sweet potato but occasionally have hone made wedges made with potatoes with skins on with a squirt of olive oil.

I’ve seen something in Iceland that I may try parsnip, carrot and beetroot fries or just carrot fries. Worth a try as the carrot ones are only £1.

Yup, rye bread is dark brown and has seed in it, like the sliced loaf I just started, photo 1

Pumpernickel bread is even darker and is usually in small circular slices, like photo 2

For you, I recommend these slices rather than rolls, which can be higher carb

Thanks for the welcome. I can imagine it's heartbreaking if you suddenly grow out of a favourite pair of shoes 😣 I've never been keen on footwear cus I even had humongous feet as a child, so just buy/wear whatever fits - mainly mens stuff!! I am, however, hoping to need an entirely new summer wardrobe! No idea how we'll afford it but that's my intention. Thanks for the info about feeling cold. I can live with it as long as I know it's an expected symptom. How often does everyone do a weigh-in? It'll be a week tomorrow so wondering if I should step on the scales. I lost my dad suddenly last summer 43, so can imagine how you feel. I'm finding each week the pain gets a little less raw, but wow, I don't half miss chatting with him. 😢 I'm sure your mum would be really proud of your new eating plan! x

It’s pumpernickel I quite like then, very dark as DH thought it was some type of fruit loaf. Not had it in years as our Local supermarket doesn’t stock it. But I quite like the Burgen soya and linseed.

Frazzled - I think weekly weigh ins are good. If you weigh daily you see every fluctuation, it’s constantly up and down but with a downward trend.

Well years ago my feet were a size 6 but I gained arches and lost a shoe size gradually. Now after 5:2 I’m a 4 in closed shoes and have even got into a size 3 sandal. Insoles are my friends at the moment. But from looking at the 5:2 target thread it seems very common that you loose a shoe size.

Also, your hands shrink too so expect your rings to be loose.

fazzled With weighing, it's important to do so under consistent conditions,
because weight varies naturally a bit from day to day and during the day

Best to weigh 1st thing in the morning after your 2nd FD of the week, naked, after loo but before eating or drinking anything
Some folk weigh weekly, others every 2 or 4 weeks - your choice

Scales should be in same place, on a level and hard surface - not carpet
With digital scales, switch on and weight 3 seconds for it to get ready,
then step on - don't jump.
Keep still and don't lean to one side, or front / backwards

duck Burgen Soy & linseed is a good low carb choice
If your DH thinks there might be fruit, just check the ingredients and that it really is rye, no wheat; also check the carb & sugar g per slice

(I hate raisins, sickly sweet things sneaking in < snarl > )

That's for the rye loaf; there probably is a bit of wheat in Burgen's, but it's very low carb & cal, so shouldn't bloat you

I’m going to grab some in the week, opens the doors for new lunches. Completely forgot about it until you mentioned it.

No that bread was definitely not fruit loaf, I think the colour confused him tbh. Fruit loaf and cheese would of been grim, I’m not the best of cook but I think I would of noticed that error

I can’t remember where I used to get it but I used to get it for my nan as she was German and had to have it. I’m surprised if Lidl doesn’t also sell something similar.

Can I join in please??? I've just done my first week and am gutted to have only lost 1lb . DH has been doing it with me and has lost 5lb!!!
Is it normal to have such a slow start? I had expected a bigger loss the first week that would slow to a 0.5-1lb per week loss in later weeks but now I'm despondent and wondering if I am going to succeed with this. I've done Weight watchers several times but I dont like the faff of endless counting and I wanted this easy alternative to be the answer!!!

Emsy it does vary how much you lose and depends on so many factors such as how
Much you need to lose, how healthy you have eaten before starting 5:2. A loss is a loss and is a positive step forward. It's important to see this as a way of life rather than as a quick fix.Well done on competing your first week. Stay positive and you will see all those pounds adding up.

Have had in the end a carb heavy weekend despite best laid plans. Looking forward to a FD tomorrow.

I read the old threads as motivation and BCF have just come across your first post on
These threads.

That should say how much you need to/want to lose.

BCF thanks for the advice re lemsip last week. I completed my fast day no problem then the following day (Friday) went to see GP who diagnosed bacterial chest infection and I’m on penicillin for a week. I don’t want this to interrupt my FDs this week - is there any reason I shouldn’t fast? I read somewhere that if the digestive system is resting then excess energy can go to the immune system?