5:2 Thread number 69: All that's banned on our WOL are blame, shame & guilt. Come join us for friendly support & advice

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.

It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.

• Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss

Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

Recipe Thread has many FD recipes. Post your own too.

Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

What should I expect loss wise? Is 2lbs realistic? X

First week
. We've had a couple of folk who've lost 10-12 lb the first week, but they were the exception; their loss of course slowed right down afterwards.
. A few folk in the past automatically ate more on NFDs to compensate FDs, so they didn't lose anything !
. Average is 1-4 lb the first week.

4:3 and ADF
4:3 only speeds up loss if you have a larger weekly calorie deficit than you would have with 5:2
Many who switch to 4:3 do so to eat more on NFDs, so they don't lose any more quickly

However, if the extra FD has genuinely increased the deficit, i.e. you monitor NFDs, then 4:3 - or especially Varady's ADF (Alternate Day Fasting) - can boost loss quite a lot.

The best WOL is the one you can follow consistently for several weeks, not one that's unrealistic, so you binge or crash out

You also need to follow a maintenance plan after reaching goal
If you return to your old WOL, you return to your old weight & waist

Most people have a higher initial loss in the first week or 2, which includes water loss, then settle down soon after to what is more their longterm rate.

Rate of loss is_ VERY individual,_ depending on:

• How much you have to lose - someone already around healthy BMI will lose much more slowly than someone with quite a few stone to go. The average longterm is 1lb weekly
• Your weekly calorie deficit, with 3,000 calls theoretically giving 1lb loss
• Hormonal state e.g. pre / meno can slow loss a lot
• Whether you have dieted / yo-yoed many times before
• Some chronic conditions can slow things too, e.g. thyroid, PCOS
• Some prescription meds, e.g. ADs, or hormonal contraception

Congrats on a brilliant SV, MsRinky Wowser, 3 stone 1 lb / 19.5 kg !
Almost at the great 20kg milestone
Your bits should be absolutely chuffed !

duck You'll go nuts looking at the day 2 day variations.
Look at the trend over 2-3 weeks, especially since you are now quite lean

Re recent research: leading researchers into diseases of aging - e.g. dementia, Parkinsons, CVD - also into T2, metabolic syndrome, PCOS, kidney & liver disease, asthma, .....have been adding to the evidence that IF can help improve health
At the end of the OP, I added many links to research under "Scientific Evidence for Fasting"

Many of us who are maintaining on 5:2, keep to this WOE for the health benefits we have experienced, just as much as for weight maintenance.

Thankyou x v informative x I will probably do 2 FD from next week on, I am doing this week for damage limitation because today has been below calorie but lots of fat due to 2 birthdays x

STS this week , am trying to be magnanimous but can't attribute it to anything so am quietly a bit put out. Am hoping that TOTM is around the corner and that's what it is, otherwise I am scratching my head about it all. I totally felt slimmer around the middle this week as well! Now I'm too grumpy to do my measurements and check just in case it's bad news.

Merricats I bet in a day or too you'll have lost a little, or it will show next week. Although it's so disheartening I know (lost 25kg last year, regained 8 and back on wagon!).

FD number 2 went well. Had a 30 interval session at gym, walked 20k steps and had scrambled eggs, turkey rashers, a red pepper and spinach. Still peckish but only ate 337 calories so will have some more protein now. Think I'll try keeping Monday and Thursday fast days for now. Although I work a weekend on call once a month or so (normal working days+ on call overnight so potential for no sleep, which happens sometimes) so the Monday after those weekends might fast Tuesday instead.

Merricats do your measurements! I'm on my 3rd week of STS but weight up then down and have still lost a inch each week.

Very good FD today, I didn't nibble once and had a later tea than normal.

I know I'm so impatient and my graph definitely shows a great delcline BUT I'm so close yet so far still 3 lbs away.

That's very good news on the reasearch BCF and after rewatching the original show I will definitely continue fasting and do fully intend to continue with 2 FDs per week. Ifs definitely worth a rewatch every year to confirm why we are doing this as it can get tough sometimes.

Early morning weigh in and a 1lb loss this week bringing my total to 5lb in two weeks. I might start taking measurements too. Pleased but I think I could have had better NFDs less wine this week.

Thanks BCF for the research update, it's a continual motivator!

Fast days were definitely easier this week - I was so busy Monday it passed me by.

I can't keep up with all the successes I've been reading but they really help and best of luck to the Friday fasters

Early weigh in- 1.1kg down (just under 2.5lbs). Very pleased especially as period due around now too. Now the challenge to not snack at the weekend!

Well done fire that's amazing 2 week loss!

Whoop Whoop!! SV over here too! Down 3lbs this week (!) which means I've lost half a stone since starting this WOE 3 weeks ago. Very happy! Also good to now only be in the overweight column rather than obese!! Still a good way to go to get to healthy, but at least the scales are going in the right direction

Well done to Edit and Fire for your SVs too! Smashing it!

Well done for all those great SV!

I have put on half a pound this week so far. Not having such a good week. I used to get migraines and one of the triggers was not eating. It was one of the reasons I was not sure if fasting would work for me. I was so pleased when I did not get a single headache for my first two weeks of 5:2. This week however I have had a migraine-like headache (all the symptoms but less severe) all week. I am fed up now. It's impossible to really know if it is fasting that caused it, or whether it would have happened anyway, but I had been migraine/headache free for months so it worries me. I will continue 5:2 for now and just hope they go away.

Has anyone else had migraines affected by fasting in the past?

Well done bug, fire, msrinky! So inspiring to be on this thread.

No loss this week, but a few little NSVs (trousers looser, swimming faster, better mood) to keep me smiling. It'll come off sooner or later, I'm nailing my FDs at 600-800 and NFDs are consistently just under TDEE. I'm willing to accept a slower rate of loss rather than drop FDs all the way to 500 at this point.

wonder I had a migraine recently. It started on a NFD and went through the next day (which was supposed to be a FD but obvs I pushed it back a day). I get them about once a year though, so I doubt it was 5:2 related in my case. I'm sorry to hear you're suffering from bad headaches. Perhaps your electrolyte balance is out? Potassium/sodium might be low. You could also try switching to 16:8 or 14:10 if not eating is a trigger? BCF I'm sure will be along shortly with more thorough advice!

Wonder I find the opposite and going back on 5:2 has actually pretty much stopped mine.

I used to get them occasionally maybe once a week prior to 5:2 last year but I didn't drink much on a daily basis just coffee.

Last year I was really strict cut sugar carbs and crap when doing 5:2 then I got to a healthy weight and started consuming crap again within 2 days I was getting permanent headaches that actually crippled me. I was getting between 5-6 a week.

I started on meds and it massively reduced to 1-2 a week. Since going back on 5:2 end of March I've had 2 headaches and I've halfed my meds.

I did some research and found there was a link between sugar and headaches. Not sure if that's what's caused it with me but my diet pattern does coincide with eating then not eating sugar.

When fasting especially I do make sure I drink a lot at least 2L plus a few green teas / coffees.

Well here I am on holiday. Unfortunately the food here is amazing. I have 2 weeks of this. The first 3 days I skipped breakfast and ate only between 1pm and 9pm. So 16:8. But as I'm on half board, I'm switching to having breakfast and skipping lunch. But I AM on holiday, I have paid for this holiday, so I am relaxing the rules a bit. No FDs. I hope I maintain and don't gain.

FD3, alpen light bar and a banana so far. Might have to go slightly over today, but will try not to.

NFD. Had smallish breakfast and lunch, didn't feel especially hungry which is unusual! Had a pump class at lunchtime so had a nice pod "hot protein pot" afterwards. Still counting calories on NFD- have only had 600 today so far. DH is away and DD eats at nursery so haven't planned dinner yet. Probably an omelette.

Well done on your SVs, Edit, Fire, bug You've all had an excellent start

That sounds tough, woo

What helps avoid headaches:

• Drink 1.5-2l water daily

• Cut out fizzy drinks, or restrict to 1 glass per day

• On FDs, mid-morning and mid-afternoon, glug a teasp Marmite - if you don't like it, just knock it back like medicine. It replenishes lost salt. It also boosts B vits

• As mship suggested, if you do a lot of exercise, you might need electrolyte tablets afterwards - I get these from Amazon

• Cut out any sugary crap - sweets, cake, biscuits, ice ec - for 2 weeks, to see if this helps
  Also cut out junk carbs like pizza, deep fried food, crisps.
  Fasting can make you more sensitive to junk, especially sugar.
  Cut out sugary breakfast cereals and fruit juice too.

• Are you eating enough protein ? Try boosting this on FDs and NFDs. Oily fish - salmon, sardines, mackerel - are especially healthy

• On NFDs, boost healthy fats too: avocado, nuts, olive oil

Maybe change fasting type:

• Go to 800 FDs - Mosely found these work better for some people who have unstable blood sugar
• Or move to 1000 cal "miniFDs" on Mon+Wed+Fri - we found this works well for some folk who can't get on with FDs
• Daily 14:10 would be better than 16:8 if you have headaches. However, without FDs, you would need to have a daily deficit of 400-500 cals

I hope your headaches go very soon.

I returned Monday, after a difficult few months, I need to get my head back in the game. I've had three fast days this week and am 5lb down by Friday, and feeling better already.

I don't want to lose loads, maybe 20lbs? I'd just like to feel better about myself and be able to wear absolutely everything in my wardrobe. I need to be fit and healthy for my three DC and I need to physically stronger to look after my youngest, who has a rare genetic condition and can't walk yet, but at 2, she's getting heavy for her poor old mum but optimistic she'll get there, so I need to be able to run after her once she's off!

So I'm finally getting my head out of the sand and making sure this is now my way of life!

Hope everyone is well and having a good weekend? I'm packing boxes, we're moving house and it's all go! Since I'll be busy, great excuse for mini fast today and save myself for a yummy dinner.

1.5lb off 🙂 Here's hoping to me having a more focused week this week, and following SW on NFD x

Welcome back, overtired
Well done on your first week and SV
Those are all excellent reasons and you sound very focused
FDs give you more time for all that tiresome packing and the 1001 other moving chores
Enjoy your new home

Well done on your SV too, care

Cereal bars (and flavoured yoghurts, whether diary or soy) are usually packed with sugar and high GI, which can increase hunger and hinder fat-burning
They are more of a sweet treat for NFDs, not FDs

If you prefer something quick and readymade on FDs, then I recommend a prepared salad / soup / curry / stew etc so that you get plenty of nutrient bang for your 500 calorie buck, with minimum "antinutrients" like sugar and artificial fillers

Have masses of veg, all coloured and drink lots of water
If you are vegan, then tins of beans - kidney / pinto / black / chickpea / soy - or lentils are great for stabilizing blood sugar and helping you feel full. A heathy way to boost protein, fiber and healthy carbs.

Filling and healthy starchy carbs: oats (steelcut or bran), sweet potato, bulgur wheat, quinoa, brown / red rice

I'm having my usual Saturday FD. Anyone else ?

No fast day for me but I snuck in an extra weigh in and am a further 2 down this morning. 7lb so far but I'm wary of the fluctuations so no more scales until Friday.

How do you manage fasting on a weekend BCF? I may work up to it in weeks to come.

This week is going to be a bit more awkward for FD as I'm doing a residential intern week. Would be able to do Friday and sat (but don't want to) I will def do one of and stick to low cal the other days