5:2 Thread number 63: 7 days without chocolate makes one weak ! On 5:2 you only diet 2 days a week.

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to maintain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START
==========

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators
Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb , Good2Know , NHS 10 Recipes under 100 cals , Mirror 5:2 50 snacks under 50 cals
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units
BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight: 3D BMI ripped / normal , Bod Vis 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, just count any milk / sugar calories on FDs.
• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice.

Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs; optionally, reduce to 700 cals gradually. You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are good though!

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back exercise calories. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF. If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals

• To speed up weight loss and to train yourself how to eat on maintenance,

optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

Browse previous 5:2 threads in the fasting section

Exercise: BigChocFrenzy's thread gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise. The OP explains the science behind fasting, exercise & health and has many calculators.

Tips and Links : BreadandWine collects practical tips & info gained over all the 5:2 threads.

Inspirational EatRiskier has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Recipes: FrenchFancy has many FD recipes. Post your own here too.

Maintaining: talkinpeace's thread is for those who have successfully lost weight on 5:2/IF and are now maintaining (some for 2 years +)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health
=========================

BBC article on the Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

A science Study specifically addressed the effect of this diet on obese men & women, wrt health and weight loss:

"... After 8 weeks of treatment, participants had an average 12.5 lbs reduction in body weight and a 4cm decrease in waist circumference. Total fat mass declined by about 12 lbs while lean body mass remained relatively constant."
i.e. almost all the weight lost was FAT, not muscle or water, - in most diets, 25% of lost weight is muscle, up to 50% for sleb crash diets.

It also describes improved blood values:
"Plasma adiponectin, a protein hormone that is elevated in obesity and associated with heart disease, dropped by 30%. As did LDL cholesterol (25%) and triglycerides (32%)."

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Some of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His recent article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Also this interview with a leading researcher into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
This has created a wealth of very valuable practical knowledge to help us all.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

Managed a good FD yesterday. Only had an apple at work at lunch time, got home mid afternoon very hungry. Had a very small beans on toast, couple of cups of coffee and that was it for the day. 450 calories.

Had a hard week last week as ended up eating out 5 nights, can't eat out without drinking, so needed a good FD. Now to keep within TDEE for this weekend.

Good afternoon everyone, good luck to anyone fasting today.

I've been enjoying keeping up with the thread, haven't contributed for a while. I've lost another kilo and a half since I last posted. I was doing FDs every Monday and Wednesday but found it a bit of a torture only having one NFD in between, so have changed to ensure at least two NFDs between FDs and it's a lot easier.

Have upped my exercise throughout the week and am now finding it much easier to go running on FDs too. I feel much stronger as a result and can eat more with an increased TDEE, so it's a win-win!

I'm going to the UK for a couple of weeks soon, this will be the real challenge for me as I usually fall right off the wagon... Will post more often to try and keep on track whilst I'm there.

Congrats on your SV, Dream Good progress.
Many people find they need to separate the FDs by 2-3 NFDs, or they get too hungry on the 2nd FD.

Well done on your FD yesterday, blueberry
An important habit to learn for a healthy longterm WOL is that you can enjoy nights out without drinking every time.
Also, alcohol stop fat-burning for hours until your liver has fully processed all the toxic byproducts. So, it can sabotage weifht loss more effect than other kinds of calories
However, even those 5 days would be ok if you keep to nhs safe limits. Your liver is a vital and hardworking organ, so be kind to it.

Excuse typos, multitasking here

On my usual Sunday FD. Anyone else ?
1hr fasted spin & 75 mins lifting, now having my cooldown walk on thr treadmill, so I can surf
Not hungry at all so far, because I had a big Saturday supper in my fav restaurant - excellent food, no junk or alcohol, so I woke up full of energy.

Hi BCF, I'm joining you on a Sunday FD today! I normally fast on Monday, but Sunday and Wednesday work better for me this week. Have been for a bike ride and 45 minute run in a fasted state, felt good. I had a bit of a carb refeed last night (I seem to need to do this every couple of weeks) and training felt almost effortless today as a result. I like the sound of your healthy feast!

< waves to dream >
I had to stay on at the gym, because there was a massive thunderstorm which would have been horrid to cycle home through. So, I added 20 mins killer abs, to make a good whole-body lifting workout

I accidentally had chocolate curry as my FD menu:

I had made a huge antioxidant protein smoothie for the gym with whey powder, broccoli, garlic cloves, olives, tomatoes, red peppers, curry powder and then added some new sprouted grain protein powder - not realising it contained raw cacao & raw choc ! Oddly enough, not that bad, sort of a sweet curry.
I'm just savouring a handful of juicy strawberries from the farm, before bed.

So i am the first to admit i was a little naughty laat week. No FD's and probably not great on TDEe's either. But how is it fair, that you dlowly and painfully lose 1 lb per week for 6 weeks and put on 7lbs in 1 week?? it seems most unreasonable.

So off we go again, back from the same old starting point. Today is a FD. I am fed up, but at least i am not hungry...... yet!

FD #1 here, still trying .
Monday morning scales blip I expect deep, you'd need to of eaten a shit load of food to put on 7lb.
All have a good one, enjoy the sunshine if you've got it.

Back from hols, too short, feel like going straight back on holiday again! Much harder than I'd anticipated to stick to healthy eating while away but did avoid all the cream tea, ice cream kind of things being consumed around me and only snacked a bit!

FD today to rebalance, will catch up on all the news later. Choc curry sounds weird BCF!

thedeep some of that will be water retention probably, don't despair

Sounds quite a disciplined vacation, clear The FD today should get you back in the swing.

Don't worry, Blue Most of that 7lb will be undigested food, plus a lot of retained water due to excess carbs, salt and booze (if any)
What helps, strangely, to release water is to drink lots of water. Also, nail your FDs this week, of course and you should be back on track soon.

Just stopping by to say hello and report that I'm enjoying 5:2 - I'm really not paying much attention at all to counting calories on NFDs and yet the weight is coming off as if by magic. Am v impressed. Fast day today: am planning half a carton of New Covent Garden Goan Chicken and Lentil soup for lunch (132 cals) and then probably a big salad for dinner - I'll probably be able to have egg, tuna AND half an avocado with it (will count calories to check though).

Thanks everyone. I am trying not to despair. But it is disappointing. I am being good and drinking my water. Those scales had better be kind to me tomorrow or else!

Back again - used to be grannygrotts but head is in a better place now, so have name changed to something more appropriate.

Haven't put on too much weight but what I have put on seems to have all gone on my waist!! I am officially fat on the inside which is an uncomfortable thought, no to mention extremely unhealthy.

So today is FD1 which is going okay so far but I am avoiding reading any posts as I am struggling sightly with the thought of food. Am planning chicken and veg curry for tonight - no rice.

Have 10k in 6 weeks and then half marathon in November which I need to train for, so will be focussing on running for exercise.

Deepblue am planning on trying to keep off the scales as they can be so demoralising - instead I have a pair of jeans which fasten very very uncomfortably round my waist and I shall use these to mark progress.

Had my first weight loss compliment today! I can't see it and it is very early days but it was a nice feeling!

FD failed. Naughty DH nothing to do with my lack of willpower of self control handed me a pimms and lemonade as i walked through the door and said we are having a BBQ - we have to make the most of days like this.

So tomorrow will be a FD - what joy

Hi everyone. Observing Ramadan and first fast today! Thought I'd throw myself in the deep end and see how I get on. Will play school day by ear as it were. So far so good. Think I'm having an omelette sandwich tonight. Not going to fuss too much over calories but generally try to eat healthier.

Starting weight : 9 stone 13lb. I have put on half the stone I lost in April

(NC from cheeky)

Congrats on your compliments NSVs, Wincher, Mooey
Always morivating when your progress is visible to others.

Good start Wincher Some people lose easily without considering calories on NFDs, especially those starting with quite a bit to lose. Also anyone who naturally eats around TDEE.

Welcome back, Granny < admires cheerful new handle >

If your weight gain is concentrated around the waist, then I recommend that on NFDs you keep within nhs alcohol guidelines and try to avoid sugary / carby junk - both sugar & alcohol increase the tendency to store fat around the waist.
Mosely recommends keeping fruit to maximum 2 portions per day, especially for those with insulin resistance, which is indicated by fat storage preferentially around the midsection, even without excess sugar or booze.

I suggest you mfp on NFDs for at least the first week, because running can sometimes increase appetite, so it is very easy to eat more than the exercise cals.

DeepBlue NOT a failed FD, just postponed
5:2 is flexible to fit into normal life, which makes it sustainable longterm
Absolutely ok to enjoy the BBQ, so you don't feel deprived. Just nail the FD tomorrow.

When you weigh, try to do so under identical conditions each time:
Easiest is naked in the morning,,after loo but before any food or drink.
If you move the scales from day to day, that can also cause variations - slope, angle etc Keep them on a hard surface - not carpet.
Also, switch on scales, coint to 3, then step on, no jumping or leaning.

Of course, no need to weigh if scales stress anyone, but you could weigh say every 4 weeks, which would avoid discouragement from temporary blips.
You can monitor waist & hips with a tape measure or just via currently tight clothes.

I wish you a peaceful Ramadan, Purple and any other 5:2ers of the Muslim faith

Be gentle to yourself, purple because your body is still recovering from the mc.
I gather this is the longest Ramadan in 33 years and also that those who are not fully well don't have to fast.
During the 2 daily meals, try to eat as healthily as possible, to provide the nutrients your body needs. Don't worry about calories atm.

Some of your weight gain is probably water retention while your body completes its repairs. So don't be in too much of a hurry to lose it.

Hi can I join? I have been lurking for a few days, reading all the positive posts and think I want to give this a go.

I have been on slimming world for 2 months and have had a loss of 1lb or more each week but it's slow and I'm getting a bit bored.

I'm 5ft 6 and 10st, (was nearly 11 when I joined sliming world) so it's going in the right direction but I really miss things like white bread, cheese etc. Am I right in thinking on my NFD I could have a cheese and marmite sandwich for lunch and a decent dinner as long as I don't exceed 1667cals?

Hi, returning after quite a break .. name changed from Meerka

Struggling to 5:2 badly as our toddler is more active and tiring and I can't fast when I'm exhausted; have tried quite hard and it just doesn't work.

Have lost some weight just through exercise (vigorously swimming between 0,5 - 1,5 km each day at the moment which is a big achievement for me).

But I'm missing the 5:2 and wondering if Big Choc could give any advice on how to make fasting 2 days a week more workable. Was wondering about aiming for a higher-cal intake on fast days like 1000 calories, or some other tips?

Should say that I lost the baby weight quite nicely for a year by 5:2ing once I stopped bf'ing. The only reason I'm not dieting now is the tiredness. The slight physical strain of fasting is just a bit too much

If nothing works now, I plan to start again once the Energybundle goes to school in a couple years. But I'd like to try again, I feel good on the 5:2 !

Evening All,

Been searching for a good, supportive 5:2 thread and would love to join this one, if that's ok?

I am a first time mum to a beautiful little boy who is almost 6 months. Now I've stared to find my feet (well, a tiny bit!) with this motherhood malarkey, I'm ready to turn a little of my attention to myself and not only shift the 2 stone I've gained through pregnancy but also to feel healthy and fit and ready to chase after my boy when that day comes.

I'm in week 4 (with my first FD for this week today-nearly done!) and have lost 5lbs so far. Started at 12 stone 8lbs, currently 12 stone 3lbs and am looking to get to 10 stone 7lbs.

Anyway, just looking for motivation and tips and a bit of a 5:2 community as I'm currently doing this on my own.

X

Welcome, MrsTumble
5:2 has no rules about what type of food to eat on NFDs. Marmite & cheese sarnies are fine as a meal; so are bacon sarnies etc. Try to avoid snacks between meals.
You get better results if you stay within nhs alcohol guidelines and keep cake, sweets, crisps, junk etc to sensible portions.
1670 is the average to aim for over the 5 FDs, so you could eat say 200 less on weekday NFDs if you want to bank dor extra at the weekend.
Some people lose without counting cals on NFDs; others need the reality check.

Welcome back, SeaEagle and well done with the swimming.
If you find 500 cal FDs too tough atm, with your live wire keeping you awake , then you could try one of these options:

a) 3 x 1000-cal non-consecutive FDs on say Mon + Wed + Fri OR
b) Slower weight loss with 2 x mini-FDs, i.e. whatever you can manage < 1000 cals OR
b) 5:2 BSD, i.e. daily low carb with 2 FDs of 800 cals

I recommend you stick with something for at least 2 weeks (providing you feel ok, of course) before deciding if weight loss is too slow.

Whatever option you choose, always remember the fasting basics:

• No snacking / grazing - eat proper meals and have any treat or alcohol as part of a meal, not between meals.
• Do daily 16:8 or 14:10
• Drink lots of water, especially on FDs, but also on NFDs

Thanks for the welcome back Bigchoc. I hold my hand up to poor food choices and they are sitting around my waist like a big fat donut! Alcohol I have less of an issue with although I do get through a bottle of red over the course of a weekend.

Did a slowish 3 mile run and had huge salad for my evening meal - eclectic mix of peas; carrot; chicken, avocado, lettuce and tomatoes with a tablespoon of dressing. MFP brought it in at 460 calories, so a good start.

Going to MFP at least until the end of June, which should break my sugar habit along with the re-instatement of the no-snacking rule.