5:2 Thread number 63: 7 days without chocolate makes one weak ! On 5:2 you only diet 2 days a week.

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to maintain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START
==========

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators
Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb , Good2Know , NHS 10 Recipes under 100 cals , Mirror 5:2 50 snacks under 50 cals
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units
BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight: 3D BMI ripped / normal , Bod Vis 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, just count any milk / sugar calories on FDs.
• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice.

Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs; optionally, reduce to 700 cals gradually. You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are good though!

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back exercise calories. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF. If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals

• To speed up weight loss and to train yourself how to eat on maintenance,

optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

Browse previous 5:2 threads in the fasting section

Exercise: BigChocFrenzy's thread gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise. The OP explains the science behind fasting, exercise & health and has many calculators.

Tips and Links : BreadandWine collects practical tips & info gained over all the 5:2 threads.

Inspirational EatRiskier has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Recipes: FrenchFancy has many FD recipes. Post your own here too.

Maintaining: talkinpeace's thread is for those who have successfully lost weight on 5:2/IF and are now maintaining (some for 2 years +)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health
=========================

BBC article on the Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

A science Study specifically addressed the effect of this diet on obese men & women, wrt health and weight loss:

"... After 8 weeks of treatment, participants had an average 12.5 lbs reduction in body weight and a 4cm decrease in waist circumference. Total fat mass declined by about 12 lbs while lean body mass remained relatively constant."
i.e. almost all the weight lost was FAT, not muscle or water, - in most diets, 25% of lost weight is muscle, up to 50% for sleb crash diets.

It also describes improved blood values:
"Plasma adiponectin, a protein hormone that is elevated in obesity and associated with heart disease, dropped by 30%. As did LDL cholesterol (25%) and triglycerides (32%)."

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Some of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His recent article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Also this interview with a leading researcher into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
This has created a wealth of very valuable practical knowledge to help us all.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

I've lost 4lb this week. I started at 17st 4lb and am now 16st 10. So 8lb in two weeks. I know the rate of loss will slow down, but it shows me I'm doing the right things. The great thing is that I don't feel like I've deprived myself at all. In the past couple of weeks I've been to Wagamamas, been out for afternoon tea and had coffee and cake at the weekends. I've just been really careful on weekday NFDs.
I've still got a long way to go. I'm quite tall, so about 10st7 (the weight I was before I had dd1!!) is my target weight. I've managed to lose before but I always seem to get stuck at 16st and then lose motivation. Hopefully I'll get past it this time.

Well done dinner fab sv 😊

2lb off for me today so that's 22lb since starting in Feb, more than I've ever lost on any 'diet' and like previous poster I haven't deprived myself / denied myself anything

Good luck any others weighing in today

Marking place I'm going to have a go after years of saying "I couldnt do that"

Is it ok to do two consequtive days so I can do it on work days when I'm busy.

Hey lots of great SVs - well done to do drop dinner green choc hope not missed anyone out....

52 2 stone Yay! The stone milestones are great aren't they?!

Thanks for congratulations on my 3-stone-down joys

Hmmm BCF and MrD that elephant's willy 'target' is just the motivation I need ?? - that's the weirdest weight loss comparison I've ever heard!!

do sorry that 'recipe' was just cobbled together so no calorie count. About 'apple shape' I can see and feelI've lost weight all over but think it'll take another couple of stone to lose the apple belly and have a real waist again. We can do it!

dinner and drop I was 16,10 in January (heaviest weight last year 17,4) , major tendancy to overeat, eat too much when stressed and eat too much sugary stuff.

A combination of 5:2, gradually upping exercise, no snacking, lots of water, mainly wholefoods and mainly avoiding sugar has got me to 13,10 and I fully intend to be a healthy BMI again later this year at some point

I've had blips and ups and downs but am gradually learning to eat for hunger, eat the right amount, think before I eat, eat more slowly, think about am I hungry? or thirsty? or tired? My portion sizes of carbs are much smaller, my energy levels are much higher. 5:2 works!

Good luck to all newcomers

We certainly can clear can I ask how tall you are? I'm a similar weight.

ledkr big choc frenzy is the best person to advise but I think back to back FD'S can be done but they are hard and take a lot of will power. I think you have slightly more calories too but bcf can confirm that for you. Good luck

Welcome, ledkr
b2b (consecutive) FDs are very tough and most folk can't manage to do them.
You could try, but don't be disappointed if you need to turn FD2 into an NFD and have the FD another day.
On b2b, have 650 cals per FD instead of 500. That is the 5:2 b2b protocol that Dr Michelle Harvie used on her successful human trials, funded by breast cancer chariries.
Her subjects also made the FDs low carb, which seemed to work well.

Congrats on your SV, Dinner Excellent start.
With a few stone to lose, most people settle down at 2-3 lb weekly loss longterm, e.g. as MrD can confirm.
Divide your weight aims into lots of smaller milestones and we all celebrate as you break through each stone barrier and especially into each lower BMI band

Congrats on your SV, need After 22 lb this WOE is clearly working for you longterm
Keep focused like this and you'll reach your goals.

Well done on the inches and lifestyle NSVs, clear
You are another one who has settled in successfully for the longterm.

Thanks for the heads up.
I will take your advice I think.
Do you lot just starve until dinner cos I reckon that's my best bet cos once I start I can't stop.
I'm not going to say anything either cos we have a few 5/2 ers at work and they get on my nerves a bit banging on about it

Do whatever works for you, ledkr
Most folk find it easier just to have supper, because you get a decent meal for 500 cals.
Keep drinking water through the day. Have a teasp of Marmite to replenish salt & minerals, boost B vits.
For FD meals, concentrate on protein, loads of veg, some complex carbs. Avoid junk. Save alcohol for NFDs.

I totally agree other people's diets are booooring ! Keep schtum.
And you may get the "diets don't work" / "only a slice of cake" sabotage .... until they see the leaner you.

I stupidly bought pate this week as it was on offer.
Don't do it. I was shocked at the calories in it. I shouldn't have been shocked, it's obvious, but I was. I've Googled some mackerel pate recipes for future reference. My Sunday weigh in has sneaked back up to 12' 0 1/2. Kicking myself. I have exactly a month till I turn 50 and there are some brand new slightly tight size 12 jeans in my wardrobe waiting for an outing.
Back to it Monday morning.
Good luck everyone and well done .

Oh god, went to a conference on Thursday in a rather lovely Italian city and then stayed on to catch up with friends and will be coming back tomorrow morning after a few days of non stop eating and drinking.

So, after a successful couple of FD last week, I have probably wrecked any good that I did. FD again tomorrow which should be easy as I'm not home til around noon and must behave on the nfds next week!

Hadn't realised how much I rely on this thread to keep me going.

Don't worry about it, Zeek Sounds a delightful Italian holiday.
Nail your FDs this week, keep the NFDs sensible including weekend and that should get rid of any holiday gain.

That illustrates how mfp highlights hidden calorie bombs, Fusspot
Of course you can still enjoy calorie-dense food like pate, peanut butter etc on NFDs, but plan them within TDEE and learn a sensible portion size.
Some pates, e.t. Brussels, are quite reasonable at 360 cals / 100g; add a big salad and 1-2 slices wholegrain toast
Weighing portions, while you learn, is much more accurate than "x tbsp", because a heaped tbsp for some folk may be 5 level tbsp.

Bread
For several foods, the issue is keeping the accompanying bread - & butter / mayo / oil - to sensible portions.
1 portion bread at a meal is 1-2 thin slices / 1 medium roll. If you have butter, then a thin smear, not half a pack.
I always have open sandwiches, because the filling is what's delic.
I consciously boost the veg sides, because my 1950s-70s childhood was before 5-a-day was invented, so I can revert to 1-2 per day if I'm not careful

Afternoon all

Just a quick pop in to say the scales didn't move yesterday but not the end of the world, haven't had a consolidation week for a while so assume its that. Bra is decorated ready for next weekend (thanks to a glue gun, a load of craft feathers and my mums skills!)

And I've been wearing shorts and having my legs out in the sun (can't remember the last time I did that!)

Well done everyone! Sounds like things are going well

Dinner - I can confirm I consistently lost 3lb a week for the first 2 stone, and has varied but mostly 2lb a week since then. You can do it!

zeek, you'll find that any weight which goes on quickly comes off just as quick. It's the slow accretion of weight that's so hard to shift!

About bread:
Before 5:2 I used to consciously bake my wholemeal rolls so they came out at 100g. I'd have one of these for lunch - and this was my breakfast!

Now I have no breakfast, and for lunch just one slice of bread, weighing

Thanks bread. Unfortunately got both to shift!

Ugh I seem to have got the stomach bug dd1 had the other day. I feel awful. Dd was better the next day though so hopefully I'll follow suit.
I had planned a fast day for Tuesday. Should I leave it a bit longer than that? Today will have been an involuntary fast day!!

Sorry to hear that, Dinner
After a stomach bug, I always recommend waiting a full week after the end of symptoms before fasting again:
Some people have found that fasting soon afterwards can restart symptoms, probably because the stomach takes several days to get rid of all traces of the bug.

So, don't fast this Tuesday; wait until the following Tuesday

Have a week of healthy eating within TDEE - plenty of water, no junk, no booze. This will help your stomach recover more quickly

Morning all 😀
FD here today and it's much needed after going over tdee this weekend with too many gin and tonics in the sunshine

Hope you feel better soon dinner that sounds grotty...

Well done on the shorts nsv mrd and good luck for the weekend, the bra sounds awesome.

Hope all other Monday fasters have a lovely day

Morning! Good luck those fasting today. I definitely over indulged this weekend at a big family wedding. They had a cake made of cheese, what can you do!? FD tomorrow but thinking I will skip breakfast this morning just to get myself in the zone. Nice to see more people joining in. How do other people decide their target weight if they are already within a healthy bmi? I know I need o lose weight as it is too much on my frame. Thinnest I have been is 9st3 but I was very unhappy then As my DH had been only given a 30% chance of survival. I also want to focus on strength and health rather than numbers!

Morning all FD here too.

Yay to shorts MrD!

Get well soon dinner

5'4" do so many more stone to lose but know I can do it now

Have a good day everyone, let's nail those FDs and NFDs!

Morning all,

NFD here and already planned my meals so looks like a good one, currently coming in at abour 1100 calls (way under TDEE) so will see how I feel as the day goes, can always have an ice cream for pud if the weather stays nice.

Scales are for some reason showing almost 3lb gain today! I'm not worried as figure it must be the usual - undigested food, water retention, blah blah.... bit of a shock still though! We'll see what the week brings, but as I've said before, this is a way of life for me now. I know I'm getting healthier and the weight loss is a happy side effect, so I'm no longer stressing about the numbers really, I know they will come down. Plus I did have a glass or two of wine friday and saturday (first time in AGES I've had that much in a week) so could be linked.

Am really looking forward to this weekend now - can't believe the time is here! Am going to be shattered sunday morning but hopefully buzzing too!

Dinner, rest up and feel better soon - Follow BigChoc's advice and she'll have you better and back fasting in no time!

FD for me. Feeling irritated because I already feel very hungry so really need to distract myself. Which is difficult as I have a very quiet day working from home and am not busy at all.

Going for another coffee.

Will go to the gym at lunch time.

Hellooo! I am doing my very first fast day today. I'm a bit worried about whetehr 5:2 will suit me as I get rather shaky and grumpy when I have low blood sugar, but I really want to figure out a long term way to eat to maintain a healthy weight. My BMI is 24.5 so I'm not overweight as such, but I'd like to lose about 5kg. Last year I lost about 10kg doing low carb, but 5kg has gradually crept on again and I just can't seem to stick to low carb in the long term, and I can't quite find the balance.

I thought I'd try to do 16 hours without eating from 9pm last night until 1pm. Then I'm planning to have a hard boiled egg with lettuce, tomatoes, spring onions and a little bit of salad dressing for lunch. Then for dinner we have a salmon fillet in the fridge so will have that, or at least some of it depending on weight/calories, with some broccoli and spring greens, probably with a bit of butter. I'm used to eating low carb meals so that should suit me fine - I just can't seem to go all week without pizza or beer or the odd slice of toast and marmalade!

I'm estimating about 100ml of milk to go in my tea/coffee all day - will measure it out properly at some stage to see if that's accurate.

I'm using MFP to work out calories, but it is disapproving of me only planning 500 cals for today. Is there any way to make it work for 5:2, or do you have to pay?

Oh and my other question is that on a Monday I do a parent and child fitness test (bleep test) with my son after school, and usually I run there as well. Am I going to be OK to do that on my first fast day or am I going to faint or something?!