5:2 Thread No. 61: Add squats to your workouts - move the beer to the bottom shelf of the fridge. Join our friendly support group for the best lifestyle tips !

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to maintain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START
==========

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators
Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Good2Know , NHS 10 Recipes under 100 cals , Mirror 5:2 50 snacks under 50 cals
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units
BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight: 3D BMI ripped / normal , Bod Vis 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, just count any milk / sugar calories on FDs.
• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice.

Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs; optionally, reduce to 700 cals gradually. You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are good though!

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back exercise calories. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF. If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals

• To speed up weight loss and to train yourself how to eat on maintenance,

optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

Browse previous 5:2 threads in the fasting section

Exercise: BigChocFrenzy's thread gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise. The OP explains the science behind fasting, exercise & health and has many calculators.

Tips and Links : BreadandWine collects practical tips & info gained over all the 5:2 threads.

Inspirational EatRiskier has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Recipes: FrenchFancy has many FD recipes. Post your own here too.

Maintaining: talkinpeace's thread is for those who have successfully lost weight on 5:2/IF and are now maintaining (some for 2 years +)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health
=========================

BBC article on the Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

A science Study specifically addressed the effect of this diet on obese men & women, wrt health and weight loss:

"... After 8 weeks of treatment, participants had an average 12.5 lbs reduction in body weight and a 4cm decrease in waist circumference. Total fat mass declined by about 12 lbs while lean body mass remained relatively constant."
i.e. almost all the weight lost was FAT, not muscle or water, - in most diets, 25% of lost weight is muscle, up to 50% for sleb crash diets.

It also describes improved blood values:
"Plasma adiponectin, a protein hormone that is elevated in obesity and associated with heart disease, dropped by 30%. As did LDL cholesterol (25%) and triglycerides (32%)."

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Some of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His recent article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Also this interview with a leading researcher into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
This has created a wealth of very valuable practical knowledge to help us all.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

Evening Lion This is a great thread.

Bigchoc Good to know I won't be alone in continuing to fast and yes, I do plan to exercise more. The wild weather has put me off a bit lately but calming down now. Just fitting it all in that's tricky isn't it? I can do classes after work but not go to the gym as I have to keep up in a class but I'd just be lazy if left to my own devices so for me, I prefer to lift first thing. Also I can't do hot yoga on a fast day as it makes me feel wobbly. First thing means being at the gym for 6.30 and crossing a bridge in the dark and Gale force winds hasn't been that appealing of late! Classes planned for later in the week anyway.

Welcome Lions

Good to hear your OH is joining you on IF; makes the FDs much easier.
IF preserves muscle, in contrast to standard diets, in which weight loss is typically 25% lean mass.
Since 5:2 has only 2 weekly FDs, it is gentler than ADF and even less likely to lose muscle

I suggest you both get used to fasting for the first couple of weeks with 5:2, then review and consider if you want to proceed to ADF.

If your DH eats his full 600 cals on FDs and does strength exercises for the main muscle groups - lifting, pressups, pullups, squats etc - he may well increase muscle mass.
Men tend to lose fat more easily than women, on 5:2 or ADF

Lions Tips to feel good the day after an FD:

On the FD itself:

• Drink water; aim for 2 litres (because reducing food also reduces the fluid it provides)
• Eat low GI, to keep stable blood sugar

The NFD:

• Keep drinking water
• Break your fast with a low GI protein-based meal and try to make carbs complex e.g. scrambled eggs & tomato or pnut butter with wholegrain toast or steelcut porridge oats with almonds & cinammon.
• Berries are ok at breakfast if accompanied with protein & fat, but other fruits may be too acidic on an empty tum
• Avoid smoothies and eat solid food - lower GI and you'll feel fuller for longer.
• Avoid fruit juice, because high GI and high acid.
• Avoid sugary breakfast cereals, instant porridge or dried fruit
• Definitely avoid donuts, syrup on pancakes and other sugary crap, at least before lunch. They spike blood sugar and then it crashes down.
• Avoid alcohol this NFD until supper and keep it moderate.
• Don't binge. As well as eating back the FD deficit, bingeing keeps blood sugar high and can also stress the stomach.

weighed in at 73.5kg which is the lowest I've been since my eldest was born 15 (!) years ago

That's 1.5kg down from about 10 days ago. I've been really strict this week ... 3 proper fasts, 3 days at goal TDEE (1200) & one at current TDEE (1600), lowish carbs (

Congrats on your SV, Mayfly and that's a really good milestone, back to weight 15 years ago.
Beans, lentils, peas are all excellent filling foods which help control insulin levels.
IIRC, you are at meno ?

not meno, but definitely peri ... I have all kinds of not fun gynae issues & weight loss in undoubtedly more difficult that it was even 5 years ago. I'm at the point now where I know that if I don't get to a health weight (& stay there!) asap I'll probably be fat for the rest of my life.

I'm post-meno and like many others who do 5:2, I've found it the only system that actually worked.
It genuinely burns the mid-section fat that no other method touched.
However, it is slower for us than for the young 'uns and we have to be stricter, at least until we are goal weight.

This is for all women struggling with this stage:

5:2 Meno Weight Loss Tips

• No snacking or grazing, any day
  . Frequent eating keeps insulin raised all the time and hinders fat-burning.
  . Eat proper meals, at least 4 hrs between without calories.

• Start each day with water and drink at least 2 litre.
  Have herbal tea with stevia.

• Do mfp for at least a week. You can no longer eat what you used to or get away with binges.
  . Calculate your TDEE for sedentary and check your NFDs average within that.
  . Train yourself , e.g. mfp, to eat for your current bod, not the one you used to have.

• Hormonal changes may mean your real TDEE is 200-400 lower than the calculated value, so you MUST stay within sedentary TDEE.
  . If you have v slow loss / sts after 2 weeks following the rules and mfping, aim for goal TDEE on 2-3 NFDs
  . If you are short, you may need to add a mini-FD, or even some weeks add a 3rd FD.

• Take regular exercise, even a daily walk on your rest days.
  . Best for our weight are HIIT and resistance exercise, rather than long steady state cardio or yoga
  . Do NOT eat back exercise cals

• If possible, keep your 500 FD calories for supper. It maximises the fasting and fat-burning period.
  . It can also help correct the hormonal fluctuations / imbalance that are causing fat storage.

• Clean up your act wrt junk carbs & booze. The days are gone when you could indulge in these without thought.

. Alcohol stops fat-burning until the liver has metabolised all the toxic byproducts, which can take several hours.
. Both alcohol and added sugar tend to cause fat storage around the midsection, as do excess starchy carbs. Especially at meno.
. Keep to nhs alcohol limits always
. I suggest you 2:5 junk, i.e. have sensible portions on 2 days per week, none the other 5.

• Meno weight gain seems linked to hormonal change affecting insulin metabolism.
  . So ideally, switch to Mosely's Low Carb Mediteranean on FDs and NFDs. However, for meno: keep to 500 FDs, not his gentler 800.
  . Food is: fish, beans, lentils, peas, veg, nuts & seedsplain yoghurt, berries.
  . Have v small portions of starches (potatoes, wholegrain bread, pasta, brown rice, quinoa etc) and maximum 2 portions of low-sugar fruit - e.g. berries, apple, pear - daily. Avoid high-sugar bananas, mangoes etc.

• Once you reach goal, keep to 5:2 or at least 6:1 for maintenance.
  . Aim to eat healthily 90% of the time. Low carb Med maintenance is good - it optionally allows small portions of starches
  . Gradually start to eat back the FD deficit on NFDs.
  . If you try to maintain only by "eating sensibly" you are very likely to regain quickly.

that's all so true BigChoc, thank you :)

Initially (when I had loads of weight to lose) what & how I was eating on NFDs was less important but as my BMI approached 30 it definitely became more important. It's only now that I am being much stricter that it is coming off at a reasonable rate again.

I feel so much better though, it is incredible - sleep, energy, mood.

My tummy button which used to hang low (!) after 4 c-sections & years of weight loss & gain is now back where a tummy button should be!

Hi everyone! Glad to read about your success! I have lost a bit on the scales but I feel much leaner in my clothes if that makes sense!

I have managed two enrol two friends with me now so that's great to have company :)

Two questions: lots of you are talking menopause - when does it happen? Also if you started your periods late (say 14), will menopause be a bit late as well? I am 39 :)

• since I have started this WOE I have noticed a few changes:
• I don't tolerate milk as well as before... Just had a late and I feel off
• my stomach makes a lots of noise even on NFD + I have a LOT more wins than before

Is that normal? Am I doing something wrong?

Happy Tuesday :)

Lions - I meant "wind"! I do notice when I go to yoga after a long break (3-4 months) I always feel like this too for a day or two and then feel better. But this has been going on for a good two weeks now!

Try to keep busy and think about other things :)

Currently eating Itsu veggie crystal noddles (160cals) and I feel like I am eating chewbacca!!

Afternoon all,

yesterday turned into a feast day here (ahem... dominos may have been consumed).... so the plan is to be a couple of hundred under TDEE every day this week to balance out. I'm going for a mini today - currently stuffed on 520 cals after a delicious left over cottage pie for lunch.

Hi all, just catching up with the thread:)
Hi Lions, I too felt amazing my first fast day and then the next couple ones were WAY harder. Then they got easier, and somehow quite pleasurable in a weird sort of way. I've been told it's your body getting used to burning fat/ketones(?) as fuel instead of glucose.
I struggle sometimes with fatigue the day after a fast...that seems to be passing now, been back on 5:2 for 6 weeks now.

Saying that, I've lost nearly ten pounds--from 10st6 at beginning of Jan to currently 9st10-11ish. (I'm 5'4)
Weight loss starting to really slow down now, but I measured myself this morning and my waist is 26" and hips 37" which is a 2-3 inch loss. Yay!
Getting there...

I feel like I am eating chewbacca!

Hiya everyone.

I thought id pop on here as I have read your previous threads (last year) when fasting before. Im doing my 1st fast day of 2016 (well overdue!) and I feel awful. My head is splitting and I cant concentrate at work!! I have so far had:

25g of porridge oats soaked over night in 100ml of soya light milk.
home made soup (made with celery and courgette with a small amount of stock powder)
2 rice cakes (29 cals each)

For tea i'm planning on having porridge oats with soya milk and an options hot chocolate (possibly a yoghurt too) and I have cucumber for pre dinner snack (crunch time for me is 5 when Im trying to get dinner on the table).

Im going with quick things to make! I need to stay out of the kitchen!

Its a mind set - I know that but didn't think id find it this hard to get through my 1st day.

To drink Ive had:

3 cups of 450ml of warm water with a slice of lemon in it. 2 pint glasses of diluted orange juice.
Away to have a cup of decaf tea (black no milk or sugar).

I need to do this, I have half a stone to get back to my norm, but I really do want to do this! Right, need to stop mopping and get on with it!

Mrs try more protein? hard boiled eggs premade and kept in fridge will mean a quick in and out of the kitchen and better than rice cakes, and much more filling.

Short - yes I am 8 stone 7 and maintaining. I did do a b2b last week as had a very debauched weekend, but haven't bothered to fast this week yet and prob won't - am going on holiday skiing on Saturday so just thought I'd relax a bit.

Having said that I was under TDEE (which is 1650 set at lightly active) at 1500 yesterday and will be under today at about 1300. I am managing this by not eating breakfast. I eat a large, yummy lunch, usually a two egg big salad, followed by greek yoghurt with seeds and berries and a large banana. I eat almonds with a glass of red wine about 6 most days, and last night I had roast pork and a mountain of veg. Tonight will be a prawn stir fry with tinned tomatoes. I am very full on these meals.

I exercise at least 3 times a week, cross trainer, treadmill incline walking, weights and core exercises, and swimming, and this week, as work is so quiet, it will probably be 5 times.

And yes I do still MFP - just a habit I have got into, although I won't bother on holiday, and I sit at a computer most days so it is easy to do.

I would rather stay this weight and feel like I do, than do away with MFP and 5:2 altogether, I love that a FD or a B2B means I can basically eat and drink whatever I want on weekends.

iamblossom Do you mind me asking your height and what weight you started at on 5:2?
I'm on first FD this week, went wrong yesterday, just couldn't stop munching but feel ok today. I love the flexibility. Sternly reminded myself of the size 10 jeans I just bought and it worked. I do find it harder in the winter so must keep busy. Still maintaining on one FD a week. I plan to get a few more pounds off before summer so will go back up to 2 .

not at all love - I am 5 foot 4 (just) and was 9 stone 5 when I started. I had followed a reasonably strict low carb woe for about 4 years at that point. I infinitely prefer this.

I never felt overweight, but feel MUCH happier having lost 10 or so pounds. A personal thing I am sure.

It's interesting to read what others eat on nfd thanks lamb,. I think my meals aren't big enough, I might have said before? I think I need to rethink where I eat my calories. Most meals are fresh made, the odd ready meal on a FD.
I also need to think in the lines of BC's meno / BSD info. Lots more veg & some fruit with my meal to fill the sweet gap.
Let's see what the next six months bring, this is such a learning experience

LiDL, you sound in a similar place to me. I'm also 5'4 and started at 10st4. Last weigh in a few weeks ago had me at 9st 7.

Would love to get to 9st or a little below! Slow progress for me at the moment...

boldly yeah we do sound in a similar place!

Although there is no way in hell I'd be able to get under 9 stone...I'm built like a powerlifting French bulldog. (With boobs)

Are you exercising much? I'm finding it hard to get to the gym as much as I like with working + 2yo.

mrsKnowName are you vegetarian? I find a bit of tofu or avocado on FDs really helps. A bit of veg bouillon in hot water or a teaspoon of marmite helps with headaches. It'll get easier!

kitchen is closed at 497 for me (bean thing was amazing & I had enough calories to serve with parmesan) and a billion pancakes for everyone else!

iamblossom I am 9st 3 , my target "happy" weight at 5ft 5. Ideally i'd like to get to 9st to allow a bit of expanding now and again. My BMI is 21.5 now though and it seems to be getting harder to shift. How long did it take you given that you were already slim?

Congrats on your DV and inches NSV, LidlRichard Excellent progress.

Welcome MrsNM

FD Tips:

• For headaches: I recommend a teasp Marmite (10 cals) from the jar, no bread or anything. This replenishes lost salt & minerals, also boosts B Vits
• And drink lots of water - DrM says aim for 2l water / drinks.
• Lower the GI of your meals. Your FD sounds v high in starches, high carb, which would spike insulin, stop fat-burning for fuel and make you v hungry.
• Ditch the fruit juice. It's v high GI and also maybe acidic. Eat some berries with Greek yoghurt if you want fruit. Avoid added sugar and sweet treats.
• You need more protein, to feel fuller on 500 calories. Replace rice cakes and at least one of the porridge meals by lots of veg with fish, egg, chicken etc . If you are vegetarian / vegan then have big portions of beans, lentils, peas instead of animal protein
• Don't snack - have a hot Bovril or hot cuppa instead. Snacks keep blood suagr raised, which increases hunger and hinders fat--burning. You wil feel much fuller on fewer, larger meals, ideally just a 500-cal supper, or just lunch & supper.