5:2 Thread No. 61: Add squats to your workouts - move the beer to the bottom shelf of the fridge. Join our friendly support group for the best lifestyle tips !

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to maintain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START
==========

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators
Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Good2Know , NHS 10 Recipes under 100 cals , Mirror 5:2 50 snacks under 50 cals
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units
BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight: 3D BMI ripped / normal , Bod Vis 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, just count any milk / sugar calories on FDs.
• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice.

Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs; optionally, reduce to 700 cals gradually. You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are good though!

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back exercise calories. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF. If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals

• To speed up weight loss and to train yourself how to eat on maintenance,

optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

Browse previous 5:2 threads in the fasting section

Exercise: BigChocFrenzy's thread gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise. The OP explains the science behind fasting, exercise & health and has many calculators.

Tips and Links : BreadandWine collects practical tips & info gained over all the 5:2 threads.

Inspirational EatRiskier has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Recipes: FrenchFancy has many FD recipes. Post your own here too.

Maintaining: talkinpeace's thread is for those who have successfully lost weight on 5:2/IF and are now maintaining (some for 2 years +)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health
=========================

BBC article on the Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

A science Study specifically addressed the effect of this diet on obese men & women, wrt health and weight loss:

"... After 8 weeks of treatment, participants had an average 12.5 lbs reduction in body weight and a 4cm decrease in waist circumference. Total fat mass declined by about 12 lbs while lean body mass remained relatively constant."
i.e. almost all the weight lost was FAT, not muscle or water, - in most diets, 25% of lost weight is muscle, up to 50% for sleb crash diets.

It also describes improved blood values:
"Plasma adiponectin, a protein hormone that is elevated in obesity and associated with heart disease, dropped by 30%. As did LDL cholesterol (25%) and triglycerides (32%)."

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Some of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His recent article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Also this interview with a leading researcher into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
This has created a wealth of very valuable practical knowledge to help us all.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

I was on seroxat 15 years ago, which was really good for my anxiety - mostly because it made me so drowsy I'd happily sleep 18 hours a day. I did gain weight on that because I was just eating & sleeping.

I wish there was a way to predict how an individual would react to a particular drug, it is so variable & fiddling around with them while you're feeling desperate is not fun. The last time I came off sertraline (stupid really, was a classic I'm feeling better now) I was so bad I ended up on diazepam & amitriptyline while I waited for the sertraline to take effect.

I still take low dose amitriptyline to help me sleep ... it isn't brilliant for your heart when combined with sertraline - another reason I have to lose weight.

NFD today - had two lovely cups of coffee for breakfast!

thank you for discussing this with me. i know it's 'off topic' except it kind of isn't given many people have to balance mental health stuff into their lives and it can have a big impact on ability to eat/exercise well even without the added issues of meds.

it's all abit confused because i also discovered a few months back that i have an underactive thyroid and that can cause mental health type symptoms anyway. i'm treating it but it's a bit of a long and experimental path to get the dose right.

i do sometimes wish we better understood and took more seriously the functioning of the adrenal system and impact of hormones and their balance on the body. a lot of my stuff with cycles, mood and health and even strange issues with sudden weight loss or gain at points in my life points to issues with this. reality is reality though and health care in our world tends to look at treating symptoms rather than causes.

Never give up any medicine without discussing it with a doctor. I do think there is a huge link between eating well and less and our mental and physical health (if you want a lot of science the Perfect Health Diet is an interesting book although I have to skip some science bits - it is written by two doctors and has most of the modern research in including some parts about eating less, breaks between meals, impact of better foods on certain health conditions).

"We are what we eat" remains pretty true in my view.

Plenty of psychiatrists combine pills with therapy with exercise with healthy eating including those in my family.

In fact the worst advice you can give to a woman with a relationship split is alcohol and chocolate (i.e. sugar) and yet people go on about that all the time! It raises your seratonin levels for a very short period and then you get a massive slump.

Hi all, just checking in. You all chat too much and I can't keep up!!
Trying a Sunday FD today.
Had a blowout meal last night and loss of booze (wedding anniversary celebration!) so have stuck to water and green tea all morning.
Bought a yellow stickered organic chicken and roasted it yesterday so will have cold chicken salad for lunch and probably the same for dinner!! Then will use the rest of the meat for dinners this week and make stock with the bones for soup! Yum yum!!
Small SV for me - lost 3lb!
Well done all the Friday and Saturday fasters!!

Lots* of booze that should say, sorry

Nothing is off-topic here, Honey and I totally agree discussing meds with your doctor, not unilaterally stopping or modifying dosage.

In the OP and on these threads I remind people taking meds, or those with a serious health condition like T2 or high bp, to consult with their doctor before fasting - or switching to daily Low Carb - because:

• fasting / low carb can have a powerful effect on the body, e.g. improve insulin metabolism or bp, hence affecting the necessary dosage
• or fasting may interact with meds or be otherwise contra-indicated for the individual.

Sugary junk & booze aren't good for us, but in rl most of us will indulge sometimes. We just need to keep it within bounds and not let it damage our health or prevent us being lean.

And for those with diabetes do look at the Newcastle study which reduced or got rid of it by having people eat fewer calories a day.
Fasting has been a feature of most religions. It was also how we often ate for about 1m years until 10,000 agriculture and daily bread came on the scene so it is bound to do us good within reason.

Hi all just checking in. FD for me today. Number 3 for this week but I'll only be doing 1 next week and possibly a mini tomorrow.
Finally the weight is starting to come off and I lost 1.5 pounds last week. That's 2.5 altogether in the past 2 weeks.
I am having another attempt at adopting a vegan diet. I have got through my first week ok and have made a couple of the recipes from breadandwine blog.
I've been jogging and shredding and just trying to muster up the courage to go for a walk in the rain to get my Fitbit step count up....
Any other weekend fasters out there? I do find it cuts down on the overall weekly calories.

couple of days of very long fasts and low calories so in the interests of the 'intermittent' factor i'm eating a bit more today and had a shorter fast of only 13hrs or so. will stop early and go for a long fast again into tomorrow.

go get wet mrswhiskers - my weekend is fri/sat and i did long fasts and very short eating windows for this one. i agree if you can manage it it is the best damage limitation time to do it. well done.

Coming in just under 600 today. Not the best number but I feel like I've done well. Chicken salad was lovely. "Spent" a few kcal on a drizzle of lovely EVOO and shared a babybel with DD.
Dinner was a cod and prawn fishcake with a couple of sneaky oven chips, and vegetables.
Will have a herbal or fruit tea if I'm peckish later.
Considering it a success today given that I have biscuits and home made cake in the kitchen that everyone else has been munching on all day but I've managed to avoid!
Hope all my fellow Sunday fasters have had a good one. Quite pleased to have got it out of the way before Monday and started the week off on a good foot too.

Well done on your Sunday FD, Maddy
How is yours going, MrsW ?

I've had a mini-FD and just closed the kitchen - I prefer a few hours for digestion before bed and I'll have an early night.

I did nearly 3 hrs fasted training from 11am:
HIIT Spin with Tabata, 90 mins heavy lifting of weights 20kg - 141 kg, followed by 45 mins walk with incline on the treadmill.
No problem, I had plenty of fuel stored: I ate 4,000+ cals at a great restaurant last night from 7-11 pm

I plan an 800-cal FD tomorrow - I'll try the 5:2 version of the Blood Sugar Diet for a few weeks, to boost health.
That consists of Low Carb Mediteranean (= lc + beans, lentil, peas + yoghurt) with 2x 800-cal FDs

FD has been a success. Came In Around the 500 cals. Had oats at midday and roast veg and a vegan sausage for dinner. Forced myself to go out for a walk in the rain and so glad I did although I ended up being soaked from the waist down by a passing bus going through a puddle. Only planned to go out for 20 minutes and ended up walking 2.5 miles in 40 minutes.

Well done on all your training bc sounds like you had a good night last night. It's amazing how easy it is to consume thousands of calories in a few hours isn't it?

Well done on your FD, MrsW and your Wet Walk.

Yes, with a night out, even Fast 5 goes nowhere near keeping us within TDEE.
I only drink 1 small glass of wine every few months, so it was all food.

It's NOT a good idea to feast to that extent in weight loss phase, because those few hours ate back the entire deficit from 2 FDs, on top of my TDEE.
However, I'm in maintenance and I find once a month is ok, helps me relax and also keeps TDEE high.

Weigh in today and I've lost 1.5kg this week, after a week before that when I lost no weight at all. So really pleased tonight, especially as I had a meal out last night ( with chips!) and succumbed to a bar of chocolate on a NFD.

Also noticed today that my swim suit is definitely a bit looser. This is the first sign of looser clothing for me.

FD tomorrow and actually quite looking forward to it. I've found a FD dinner I really like which helps, so I'll probably have that tomorrow. Basically a huge vegetable stir fry with some cooked chicken added and a little bit of a stir fry sauce. I can do the same for dh and add some noodles and more sauce to his.

Hope everyone else is doing well.

Evening all, just reading back and some amazing SV's. MrsFizzy well done on your stone off! And MrDarcy on your 40lb! Been at the folks all weekend and not eaten brilliantly as they're very old school Woodside but back to fasting tomorrow and tomorrow is weigh day so we'll see.

Honey I was prescribed citalopram for anxiety about 3.5 yrs ago and am still on it. Mine was postnatal anxiety. I have been on them for 3 years and have successfully lost weight on 5:2 whilst on them last time. I totally agree with you about wishing more was known about the endocrine system and depression/anxiety as I am convinced mine is related to an imbalance since giving birth but I have just been shot down every time I suggest it to GP. However he did prescribe me the contraceptive pill to shut me up this month.

I checked my frame size. My wrist size was 16.5 cm. I put this in and it had frame size as large. Then I tried for just 16cm and it is medium. Perhaps you are on the border like me, Honey, maybe fiddle around with it and check.

Has anyone got a nutribullet or equivalent? Thinking about getting one for DH. Thought it might be of use to me on FDs? I remember watching that diet programme on last year where they were trying to find the best diet for different types of people and they did say that soup keeps you fuller for longer so I thought a veggie smoothie would be good? Any tips to share on this?

Morning, checking in.
Elsa, didn't the soup experiment have to have pieces of veg in it opposed to just liquid,,, I think??? To make you feel full.
Putting a poor weekend behind me. Not much alcohol but felt like I over ate, even though mfp says Scales is up & down, will be fluid, carbs (fresh rye bread)& general poor functioning body. On a positive note got a 14:10 in yesterday, did a hiit session, fitted comfortably into a 14 skinny jeans and OH asked where my belly has gone, so complementary
FD #1 today. Will train this morning to pass the time to go for a 20 hour FD. Need to plan my food.
All have a good one.x

I'm pleased that I've lost another 1.5lb. Being really focused this time. I'm hoping for my first half a stone by next week.

As for juicing books, I don't juice myself, but how about this one...?

www.amazon.co.uk/Juice-Cleanse-Revitalize-nourishing-recipes/dp/1785030205

Morning all. 0.3kg off this week so down to 57.7kg from my start of 60kg 5 weeks ago. Poor weekend food wise but ready to go again today.

Hope all Monday fasters have a good one.

Elsa I've got a nutribullet - I mainly use it for the kids & dh's breakfast (2-3 fruits, nuts, greek yogurt & either flaxseed or pinhead oats

oh! I made a really nice dinner on my last fast day -

roasted a small red onion, a couple of garlic cloves & a red pepper (sliced), & when they softened added 100g of brown lentils & 200ml of bouillon & put it back in the oven at 200 for 15 minutes. Then added a small salmon fillet - when that was cooked I flaked it into the stew & added chilli flakes.

Really delicious & came in at

Morning everyone; I see lots of excellent SVs & NSVs

Congrats on your SV, Allinall, Kitla, short
Well done on your clothes & compliments NSVs, Annie, mayfly

Elsa Smoothies are not very filling for their calories, higher GI because liquidising the food speeds up its digestion & absorption. Alo v quick to drink.
The raw veg would make you feel fuller and the crunching makes the meal last longer.
I suggest compromise with a chunky soup where you still have to chew, but you have extra liquid.

Fruit inherently is higher GI than veg, so you'd feel fuller if you just whizz up veg.
Mosely recommends maximum 2 portions of fruit on any day, FD or NFD, to avoid spiking blood sugar.
Also that you preferentially choose the lower sugar berries, apples, pears and on FDs minimise the higher sugar tropical fruit like bananas, mangoes or dried fruit.