5:2 Thread No. 61: Add squats to your workouts - move the beer to the bottom shelf of the fridge. Join our friendly support group for the best lifestyle tips !

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to maintain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START
==========

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators
Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Good2Know , NHS 10 Recipes under 100 cals , Mirror 5:2 50 snacks under 50 cals
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units
BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight: 3D BMI ripped / normal , Bod Vis 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, just count any milk / sugar calories on FDs.
• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice.

Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs; optionally, reduce to 700 cals gradually. You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are good though!

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back exercise calories. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF. If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals

• To speed up weight loss and to train yourself how to eat on maintenance,

optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

Browse previous 5:2 threads in the fasting section

Exercise: BigChocFrenzy's thread gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise. The OP explains the science behind fasting, exercise & health and has many calculators.

Tips and Links : BreadandWine collects practical tips & info gained over all the 5:2 threads.

Inspirational EatRiskier has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Recipes: FrenchFancy has many FD recipes. Post your own here too.

Maintaining: talkinpeace's thread is for those who have successfully lost weight on 5:2/IF and are now maintaining (some for 2 years +)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health
=========================

BBC article on the Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

A science Study specifically addressed the effect of this diet on obese men & women, wrt health and weight loss:

"... After 8 weeks of treatment, participants had an average 12.5 lbs reduction in body weight and a 4cm decrease in waist circumference. Total fat mass declined by about 12 lbs while lean body mass remained relatively constant."
i.e. almost all the weight lost was FAT, not muscle or water, - in most diets, 25% of lost weight is muscle, up to 50% for sleb crash diets.

It also describes improved blood values:
"Plasma adiponectin, a protein hormone that is elevated in obesity and associated with heart disease, dropped by 30%. As did LDL cholesterol (25%) and triglycerides (32%)."

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Some of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His recent article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Also this interview with a leading researcher into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
This has created a wealth of very valuable practical knowledge to help us all.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

Hi everyone, welcome to the newbies. B2B FDs mon and tues and have weighed in at about what I was this time last week....v sad but am holding strong.

B2B fasting is working well for me I think, with 16:8 the other days. The problem is that the day after (Wednesday) I need some breakfast as feel a bit woozy. Today I had some porridge and a banana but that's given me back my carb craving. So....what can I have for breakfast that isn't just a big bowl of carbs but that doesn't need cooking?

Question 2.....am I just losing my glycogen due to FD low carbing and putting it back on again when I eat carbs again? That is not satisfactory if so!!! I have a fairly low-carb diet anyway but I do like root veg, beans, fruit and chocolate so should I be cutting these out even on NFD? Feel like I am not really getting anywhere.

Skinnylicious Singapore tomato soup is delicious!

Final point - I have been eating a few low sugar jellies - they are v satisfying and filling but are they hurting my weight loss effort?

annie have roast salmon and veg for supper. Luscious!!

Welcome pooch - that sounds like a successful first FD. If you can manage that one, you can manage them all - after all, anything you really fancy, you can have tomorrow!

Annie well done on the b2b, and thanks for the heads up on the dress - will def only order if a) it comes back to stock in a 14, and b) I have something to wear under to smooth the lines!

I'm feeling good today, back in the swing of drinking regularly and think I'm on for a loss this week even with last week 'off'

Pigeon, good luck on the FD today

Persis sounds like you are doing all the right things on the FDs.... are you MFP'ing on the NFDs? Always worth it to get an eye on portion control etc - the carb level sounds fine. I can't remember if you have a lot to lose or not so forgive my guesswork - but if you are lower BMI it may be slow anyway. Also - my key one - how much water do you drink? I ALWAYS lose more if I remember to keep drinking - even on NFDs. I have decided its two things happening there :

• I'm not feeling as hungry as I'm getting plenty of liquid, so probably eating less in general
• I'm helping flush everything through, resulting in less water retention etc

This is unscientific guesswork - but it DEFINITELY works for me - hope you get to the bottom of it soon!

B2B is proving too hard for me today. Feel decidedly weak so will eat as normal and then do my other FD tomorrow instead.

Ive a stone to lose but my BMI is under 25 so maybe that's it. Need to aim for lower BMI as type 2 diabetes in the family, and also so I can get back in my work clothes and don't have to buy a whole new load.

I prob don't drink enough on NFDs, that's a good thought. I def do on FDs but that's because it distracts me from eating!!

I did do MFP on my first couple of NFDs but didn't want to be thinking about it all the time so stopped as I eat v similar things most days! I will try again though and check. Going to do a 1000 cal mini fast tomorrow I think to prepare for the wedding. I don't suppose I'll lose this week but will hope to stay under 70kg.

Thanks for the support mrsd (that's green tea with salted caramel).

ok so lower BMI will mean slower loss anyway - but we can still work on it. Whats your TDEE ? Have you calculated it based on Sedentary activity level?

Thats your starting point, then next step - MFP for probably a couple of weeks religiously, this will help you spot what you can change. My guess is your TDEE will be reasonably low, meaning your deficit isn't massive. So its quite possible you are eating back those cals on NFDs. Am sure bigchoc will be along soon enough to confirm or deny my suspicions.

Hmm. Had calculated TDEE on the next one up from sedentary. So my new TDEE is 1700 cal

So perhaps I am just eating it back. Will try again. I think I have to do as you suggest and MFP everything. That's easy if it's ready meals etc but when you have to add in all the ingredients for something it's so boring!!!

Thanks MrD

hi still here but haven't posted for a while. was poorly then had a bit of a heat wave here of temperatures of 30degrees so was out and social a lot as everyone was enjoying the early summer.

haven't weighed in a while but have been keeping up with the eating/fasting windows so i should hope at the least i haven't put on what i had lost (half a stone in 3 weeks) but not sure i dare hope i have lost more as that 'social' time came with quite a lot of drinking.

will try and brave the scales tomorrow.

hope everyone is doing ok.

Hello All!
Chin up Persis! You may also loose in fits and starts and go up and down a bit.

Fasted Monday and Tuesday and was planning to today but just went all wobbly on a site meeting, so have gone to a cafe and ordered hummus and falafel and a cup of tea.

Good news is that I weighed in this morning as wed is going to be my official weigh in day and I'm 7lb down on my starting weight!
Yay. Not bad for 9days. I'm sure that will go up and down a bit over the next week, but am currently feeling positive and that its all achievable. Half a stone was my first mini target. Now I want to get under 170lb, so just 4 lbs to go.
Will set the next target after that!

Ooh and I've already done 10000 steps today..

Welcome Pooch and congrats on your lo

If you are BFing you can start at 1000 cals and gradually go down to 700 as you feel ready. Even if you aren't BFing, but are feeling sleep-deprived (!), you could ease your way in if 500 cals seems tough

Persis Beans & pulses are healthy and aid weight loss, so don't cut back on those - unless you are eating 5 tins per day.

I agree with MrD that you need to mfp everything you eat - and drink - for at least a full week, to check your intake. You may have hidden calorie bombs, or your portion size may not be suitable for your TDEE.
You may indeed be rating back the FD deficit.

Also, those who are already around healthy BMI usually have to be stricter than those with more to lose

Drink 2 litres water on FDs and NFDs

Hi everyone!

Hope all weds fasters are doing OK and drinking loads of water!!!

I'm such a newbie here - only had my first ever fast day last Friday, then another on Monday (with heavy cold) and looking forward to next one tomorrow.

Am in a state of shock and jubilation.... In the last 6 days 7lb seem to have melted away and I feel a different shape and size. So it would seem that my body is liking this new WOE! Not just my body but my mind too as it's such a break from thinking about food on fast days and is also helping me be much more mindful about food the other days.

I still have a lot of weight to lose and know that this rate of weight loss will probably slow right down but boy oh boy has it been an encouraging and motivating start to the 5:2 WOL!

Thanks to all for such an inspiring thread

Congrats on your SV, ClearSkies Great start and mindset.
If you continue to eat with enjoyment but mindfully on NFDs then you should continue to lose well.

Well done Clearskies - great start and very motivating.

NFD here but am logging everything on MFP to make sure I'm still on track with TDEE.

I have a couple of questions for those of you that have been doing this for a while if you don't mind:

1. What do you mean by a mini-fast?
2. I see that quite a few of you one here are doing B2B (the thought of which fills me with horror having just started out!). What are the advantages of this? Do you do it to get all your fasting out of the way in one go or is there some more scientific benefit?

Thank you in advance!

Ninja A minifast is 700-1000 cals.
Anything under 700, I would count as a reasonable attempt at an FD

b2b
Can be to get fasting out of the way at the start of the week, or if your social calendar means you can't fit an NFD in between.

If you don't overeat with 5 NFDs in a row, i.e. keep within daily TDEE, then b2b slightly speeds up weight loss and possibly increases health benefits of fasting. BUT, I repeat you must handle 5 NFDs sensibly.

Low carb b2b was the 5:2 system used in Michelle Harvie's promising human study, funded by charities, for those at higher risk of breast cancer.
The risk factors were found to be reduced more than by a standard daily diet and the weight loss was greater.
Her subjects had 650 cal FDs for b2b, so I recommend this for those who b2b.

BUT b2b is still VERY difficult and is not sustainable longterm for most folk.

Thanks everyone. I have retrospectively put in everything I ate today (was quite easy as haven't thrown away the packets!!) and, depending on how you count my quiche for supper, prob about 1300 cal of eating and maybe 200cal of drinks.
I think tomorrow I will measure out my milk for coffees in the morning and use it as a quota. I've bought some coconut rice milk which is about half the calories (can't have almond). That's the only place I can think of that calories are slipping in. My portions should be ok as I have basically only eaten ready meals since I started!!!

Thanks again. I know it is harder nearer the target weight, but I will do what it takes! Is there any benefit to adding another fast day? I find them strangely easy as I don't have to think about food at all!!!

to Wednesday fasters. Hope you are enjoying your supper!

Persis You calculated your TDEE as 1700 for "lightly active"
So that means on 1-3 days per week, you have a 1hr walk or do 45 mins of gym or swimming etc. Otherwise, you count as sedentary.

Your cals today total 1500, which is fine
You need to mfp for a full week, to check you stay around the 1500-1700 cals on NFDs.
If you do that, you should lose, but your weekly deficit at your TDEE is 2000-2500, so less than 1lb weekly in theory. Natural weight fluctuation may be masking a small loss.
IIRC, your bmi is around healthy range, so not much fat to lose. If so, you need to be stricter than most folk on these threads and also accept that trimming the last few lb would be a orocess of several weeks.

I recommend you mfp and stay within TDEE for at least 2 weeks before considering a 3rd FD:
It is more important when starting to learn to keep within TDEE regularly on NFDs. This trains you to eat the correct amount for your body and hence easier to avoid regain when you go to maintenance.

Thanks for the answers BCF - really helpful.

Evening all, thank you for the welcome!

I can't believe how much information there is on this thread and how helpful everyone is . I hope I will be able to join in more as I get to grips with it all.

NFD here today but have tracked and noted everything in MfP so I start to understand better what are healthy portions! Have really enjoyed my food today!

Second FD planned for tomorrow, strangely looking forward to it.

Thanks BCF . My BMI is 24 and I have 5 kg to go. I decided I do light activity as I do circuits once a week (gave me TDEE of 2000) but given the weight is not falling and I am RUNNING OUT OF PATIENCE I will go with 1700, which is sedentary. It'll be good practice as when I go back to work I will def be sedentary!

I will MFP religiously for 2 weeks then ask your advice again! I think the B2B FD, although I like them, are hard as there are then 5 NFDs to go through - maybe I need to space them out a bit? But perhaps by MFPing hard I can keep myself under control. Ate the kids leftover supper (it was so delicious!) so counted that as my supper and have gone to bed with a rumbling tummy..........

Wow... Don't think I could do a b2b, that is some willpower.
Finished at 1254 call today, trying to sage some for some wine thus weekend (that is allowed isn't it?) I'm a bit confused about my tdee, it varies by about 300 cals depending on which one I use so should I just go for somewhere in the middle? If so that would be about 1800.
FD tomorrow, found that turkey salad from subway is around 150cals with dressing so planning that for lunch wish me luck!!!

Gosh... All those typos look like I've started the wine already! Stooopid phone

Hi all! Second FD of the week today, kitchen closed at 550. Had a sneaky mid week weigh naughty then wished I hadn't as the scales say I've stayed the same so far. Shouldn't be greedy after my loss last week though. No more weighing Til official weigh day on Sat now. We'll done to all on fd today and good luck to those doing tomorrow! :)

Good morning all!

Second FD here. So far only miso soup and 2 cups of tea with milk. DS is sick and snotty, as is baby DD but the weather is absolutely stunning.

I'm planning the fast diet O'Kelly fish for dinner. It's delicious and I really recommend it.