5:2 Thread No. 61: Add squats to your workouts - move the beer to the bottom shelf of the fridge. Join our friendly support group for the best lifestyle tips !

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to maintain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START
==========

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators
Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Good2Know , NHS 10 Recipes under 100 cals , Mirror 5:2 50 snacks under 50 cals
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units
BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight: 3D BMI ripped / normal , Bod Vis 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, just count any milk / sugar calories on FDs.
• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice.

Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs; optionally, reduce to 700 cals gradually. You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are good though!

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back exercise calories. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF. If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals

• To speed up weight loss and to train yourself how to eat on maintenance,

optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

Browse previous 5:2 threads in the fasting section

Exercise: BigChocFrenzy's thread gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise. The OP explains the science behind fasting, exercise & health and has many calculators.

Tips and Links : BreadandWine collects practical tips & info gained over all the 5:2 threads.

Inspirational EatRiskier has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Recipes: FrenchFancy has many FD recipes. Post your own here too.

Maintaining: talkinpeace's thread is for those who have successfully lost weight on 5:2/IF and are now maintaining (some for 2 years +)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health
=========================

BBC article on the Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

A science Study specifically addressed the effect of this diet on obese men & women, wrt health and weight loss:

"... After 8 weeks of treatment, participants had an average 12.5 lbs reduction in body weight and a 4cm decrease in waist circumference. Total fat mass declined by about 12 lbs while lean body mass remained relatively constant."
i.e. almost all the weight lost was FAT, not muscle or water, - in most diets, 25% of lost weight is muscle, up to 50% for sleb crash diets.

It also describes improved blood values:
"Plasma adiponectin, a protein hormone that is elevated in obesity and associated with heart disease, dropped by 30%. As did LDL cholesterol (25%) and triglycerides (32%)."

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Some of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His recent article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Also this interview with a leading researcher into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
This has created a wealth of very valuable practical knowledge to help us all.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

Lidlrichard I totally agree with you wrt exercise cals.
On these threads, we always say

Do NOT eat back exercise calories
Most people - and gadgets - overestimate the extra calories burnt and underestimate the "reward" food eaten.
Hence exercise may bring a net calorie increase

Many people actually gain weight with exercise becuase they allow themselves to eat more - and no, it isn't muscle:
a women, even lifting heavy weights, would be lucky to add 0.25 lb muscle per week; a male lifter might manage up to 0.5 lb.

Exercise, especially HIIT, can help problems with insulin metabolic which are hindering fat -burning.
Exercise can help boost weight loss if you don't increase cals.

Exercise can also help maintain weight loss, by keeping up your BMR and boksting feel-good endorphins

However, the main benefit of exercise is to improve your health, rather than your weight.

Persis 2000 cals gives a decent amount of protein, masses of veg and moderate portions of complex carbs & fruit.
However, it won't stretch far if you eat junk & booze.
A coffee shop choc muffin & fancy latte can add up to nearly 1,000 cals, with little nutritional value - and you'll soon be hungry.

I recommend you mfp, just to train yourself what you can eat for 2,000 cals.
i.e. to get the biggest bang for your TDEE.
Once you develop a system and can judge portion sizes, no need to count

btw, fat-free products generally taste foul, even if they don't add sugar.
Best to have a smaller portion of full-fat Greek yog, i.e. real food.
On NFDs, drizzle olive oil on your salad or roast veg.
Bin those Frankenstein lowfat spreads and have a little butter on your (wholegrain) bread

Evening all

Yes BigChoc - am registered for the moonwalk - thats mid-may and need to be able to walk 26.2 miles by then So far so good though, just got to make sure I don't injure myself before then! Due to the DC I can't do masses of training, just trying to do lots of little walks when I can / being more active in general, as well as my fortnightly walks - which increase by roughly 2 miles a time.

Well done on all the SV's going on

at the penis revivals! BigChoc - you started it ... though I'm planning on finishing it when I finally lose the bastard How much have I got to go again?!

Thanks big choc. I used to always have unsweetened almond milk but I just got used to normal again. I just need to ditch it don't I...
Even with 150 cals of milk I came in just over 820 cals and part of that was a last minute hummus and carrot disaster (without which I would have been 700 cals!)

However I really feel satisfied, had a yummy steak and broccoli for supper, with mustard for extra flavour. 800 cals seems totally doable for more than just 2 days a week, so I'm going to see how much I can stick to it for. I'm never going to be able to do it every day, but if I can do it 4 out of 7, those first few pounds should go pretty quickly...

⅓ of that elephant's penis to go, MrD
26.2 miles sounds fantastic, good for your !

Persis- well done on your first FD. Have you got much to loose? When I did 5:2 last year I quickly got used to it so I'm hoping the same will happen this time now that I am mentally more commuted.

I've also clearly missed some elephant penis talk while I've been gone!!

moo An elephant penis weighs about 60 lb and we wanted a more interesting target for those, like MrD, who have quite a lot to lose.

I've got a stone to go. It's baby weight and I lost the first 10kg really easily but have hit the wall - just eating sensibly hasn't shifted anything since Christmas, and then I feel like if I'm not losing weight, what's the point in trying, so I have crept back up a bit too. Last time I really struggled to lose weight whilst BFing but it must be possible, other people do it!!

The yoghurt sounded lovely - Greek yoghurt on a bed of honey - but the honey bit was awful, all gloopy! Sadly I have 7 to eat up but after that I'm going to bin the diet foods!

I also bought lots of veg and some salmon for supper tomorrow as a treat. My plan is to try and skip breakfast again and then have soup for lunch and a big big big bowl of roast veg and salmon for supper. Will look at it on MFP in a minute and check how it adds up.

AN ELEPHANT PENIS WEIGHS 60lb?!?!?! Dare I google this?!?!

What weighs a stone?

persis When I breast fed I found I held on to about 5lb until I stopped completely so that will have an effect even if you don't feed often now. Mother nature's way of making sure you have enough to make milk. Well done on getting through the day

I personally love Total 0% Greek yoghurt because I love the thick texture. I cannot stand flavoured fat free yoghurts though, they just taste of artificial sweetener.

Don't google the pics !

"Eating sensibly" only loses weight if your "sensible" is less than your body burns
Many overweight people got that way because they overestimate what their body can burn.
They may need retraining / a reality check, e.g via mfp
Some folk have no idea that some fav "treats" are calorie bombs

Those with blood sugar issues, like insulin resistance, preT2 etc have a tougher job losing: they need a calorie deficit AND low carb

In future, don't buy yoghurt with honey or syrup or puree - it's just sugar !
Even pure honey is v high GI, not for FDs.
If you want fruit yoghurt, buy the fruit & yoghurt separately - sweet yog usually has added sugar / glucose / fructose / fancy name for sugary crap.

And the thing is, even though it was low in calories it was nasty so I would rather have had 90 calories of something nice! Or at least something nutritious - it tasted so artificial I may as well have eaten the carton it came in!

Lesson learned. I'll try the total 0% with some actual fruit!

I think my downfall was near-constant snacking and absent mindedly eating things like the kids leftovers. So hopefully by not doing that I will easily stay under my TDEE. Have talked my DH into doing it too, at least at dinner times - will be easier if the house isn't full of nice food!!!

Thanks love

BC that's really interesting about the muscle gain. I'm actually quite surprised it's so much! I'm lifting heavier weights now and loving it.

I had a sales call today from some fitness company, trying to flog a diet and exercise plan. They were telling me all about how important it is to "eat little and often" because your body needs fuel...yadder yadder. I asked them how they square that with insulin spikes and whether they had researched the health benefits of fasting as they seemed so keen to rubbish it. They didn't have much to say I think it was probably the hardest call of the poor girl's day.

FD over on 508cals or thereabouts. Off to bed now, nighty night!

Hi all,
Been absent for a bit, kinda in a slump at the moment for various reasons (work, etc) so FDs have gone out the window as food is my comfort. Also I'm a bit of a foodie and love variety so after a few FDs with the same old meals, like soup, I'm well and truly bored and fed up. Maybe a quick browse of the FD recipe thread would help.
Could really do with a kick up the bum / advice / inspiration if possible, would be really grateful. I know this WOE works - I've lost 4lb in 4 weeks and my size 12 jeans fit!
Even with that, I'm still finding it hard to motivate myself.
Glad to see the elephants penis still making an appearance!! Lol

Persis Every day:

• Eat meals - always include protein & lots of veg
• Only eat your own meals - not your DC leftovers
• NO snacks between meals
• Drink lots of water
• Reduce sugary crap

Maddy You know 5:2 works, but you alos know that's only if you actually buckle down and do it dor several weeks or months, until you reach goal.

Check out the links below the How to Start section of the OP: links to good 5:2 FD recipe sites, eating out etc

Make your NFDs very foody, but if the FDs are too lush, then tbh you won't be satisfied with only 500 cals.

Regard FDs as "pampering days" but non-food treats:
e.g.

• have your hair / nails done
• try a new nail varnish
• soak in a bubble bath, with scented candles around
• put on a cleansing face mask
• extra time to apply serums & moisturisers to your face
• massage your skin with birch oil, to keep taut skin as you lose fat
• personal care - excess hair removal, smooth hard skin, trim finger & toenails
• have an early night, extra sleep

Thanks BC you're right, I know 5:2 works, and I know it's good for me. I fear the problem is me, I don't work. I struggle to stick with anything. I will read the info at the start again as advised, check out some recipes and try to renew my motivation. Maybe read my book again too.
I think the problem is I've been up and down half a stone a few times in the last year, so even a SV isn't enough to spur me on as I always just assume I'll put it back on again so what's the point. Sorry for moaning, I need to rant and OH is sick of hearing about it

Maddy I suspect your main problem is you don't naturally eat within TDEE and hence have problems both losing & maintaining.
Most people vaguely think they'll eat sensibly to maintain, but that rarely works

You basically keep returning to your old WOE, hence your old weight.
Change your mindset and accept that the body you have now, at the age you have now, will always gain weight if you eat & drink like in your teens or 20s, preDC.

I suggest:

1. Train yourself to habitually eat within TDEE by using mfp on NFDs.
   Most new habits take at least a month to become permanent, longer if they are food habits.
   You'll learn what food fits into TDEE

2. Decide on a maintenance plan.
   For most folk, 16:8 + 6:1 + daily weighing

3. That's another thing about maintenance: you have to weigh frequently
   AND resume 5:2 as soon as you gain 4 lb
   OR the day after you return from holiday
   A small gain doesn't take long to shift
   Delay a few weeks or months and it can become a mountain to climb,

Morning all, would it be okay to join you?
I've browsed the threads for some time now and after weigh in and meal planning for this weeks FDs and all the other recommendations I am over half way through the first FD. I'm in oz so just about to hit the school pick up. Occupied myself with making Tracy Island.

I'll come back after pick-up

So I can get a bit hangry which worries me. The plan is carrot watermelon smoothie (with ginger and lime juice) otherwise I might stab someone, lunch and dinner ready meals as portion control is a big problem for me. Today was rice and tuna which was 260cal and then a soup for dinner with bath and an early night fx I can do this. The only other way I've lost weight is bfing

"Change your mindset and accept that the body you have now, at the age you have now, will always gain weight if you eat & drink like in your teens or 20s, preDC." Noooo I want l to live in denial happily munching cake and drinking cider!! You're SO right. I need to work out what works for me now. I'm older and heavier than I've ever been and my lifestyle is totally different now. Seems silly to assume WOE could stay the same!

Will try to MFP more on NFDs. Drives me mad putting everything in but it is necessary, you're right about that too. I def eat over TDEE most days without realising.
However, on the flip side, one good thing about MFP I have found is sometimes I think I've had a terrible day and eaten over TDEE, start thinking oh I might as well throw in the towel and binge, etc, and when I input it all it turns out I'm under TDEE and just massively overestimated the day's kcal!! It's happened a few times!

I will also give 16:8 a try to keep NFDs under TDEE as its really easy for me to skip brekkie, I've never been that bothered about eating first thing.

Thanks so much for your wise words. Given me a lot to think about. I do think as well as this new WOE I need to adopt a new WOT (thinking!)

"Otherwise I might stab someone" tootoofunny That made me LOL and snort into my cup of tea!!!!