5:2 Thread No. 61: Add squats to your workouts - move the beer to the bottom shelf of the fridge. Join our friendly support group for the best lifestyle tips !

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to maintain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START
==========

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators
Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Good2Know , NHS 10 Recipes under 100 cals , Mirror 5:2 50 snacks under 50 cals
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units
BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight: 3D BMI ripped / normal , Bod Vis 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, just count any milk / sugar calories on FDs.
• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice.

Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs; optionally, reduce to 700 cals gradually. You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are good though!

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back exercise calories. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF. If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals

• To speed up weight loss and to train yourself how to eat on maintenance,

optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

Browse previous 5:2 threads in the fasting section

Exercise: BigChocFrenzy's thread gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise. The OP explains the science behind fasting, exercise & health and has many calculators.

Tips and Links : BreadandWine collects practical tips & info gained over all the 5:2 threads.

Inspirational EatRiskier has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Recipes: FrenchFancy has many FD recipes. Post your own here too.

Maintaining: talkinpeace's thread is for those who have successfully lost weight on 5:2/IF and are now maintaining (some for 2 years +)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health
=========================

BBC article on the Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

A science Study specifically addressed the effect of this diet on obese men & women, wrt health and weight loss:

"... After 8 weeks of treatment, participants had an average 12.5 lbs reduction in body weight and a 4cm decrease in waist circumference. Total fat mass declined by about 12 lbs while lean body mass remained relatively constant."
i.e. almost all the weight lost was FAT, not muscle or water, - in most diets, 25% of lost weight is muscle, up to 50% for sleb crash diets.

It also describes improved blood values:
"Plasma adiponectin, a protein hormone that is elevated in obesity and associated with heart disease, dropped by 30%. As did LDL cholesterol (25%) and triglycerides (32%)."

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Some of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His recent article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Also this interview with a leading researcher into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
This has created a wealth of very valuable practical knowledge to help us all.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

No more TOTM Choc, I'm on the mini pill now. Did have a sandwich and a cider yesterday but nothing excessive. It's much better this morning, thank goodness!

Hi guys, I ended up doing a FD on Friday unexpectedly as I woke up with a kind of mini tummy bug...ended up super busy at work which was good and closed the kitchen at 350 cal. Woot! Woke up this morning feeling really good despite pmt (still, argh) and looking forward to a scrumpy cider later after work.

B&W those roasted chickpeas are so fab aren't they! Thanks for the reindeer to actually make some.

Also thanks everyone for the info on b2bs, no food for thought

Reindeer?? Reminder

Hi all. I want to start doing 16:8. Is it possible to stay motivated doing this if you don't weigh yourself? I have a fear of scales so was thinking of doing without!

Welcome Fallacy

No need to weigh if that worries you. You could use a tape measure on waist & hips, or just go by jeans that are too tight now.
People post SVs if they weigh or NSVs about compliments or clothes fit, so you'd still get congratulated here on your successes.

16:8 works if the shorter eating window makes you eat less than you burn.
So most folk skip a meal - either breakfast or supper - whereas some just have smaller meals.
You can either eat mindfully & sensibly in those 8 hrs, or if you need more structure then use mfp to keep below TDEE (use the TDEE calculator in the OP, with exercise sent to sedentary and do NOT eat back exercise calories)

Thanks for the reindeer

And there was me thinking we'd done with reindeer for another year!

I had a sort of an NSV recently. We got talking about ages in my Family Learning group, so I asked the group of young mums how old they thought I was. One thought I was in my fifties - and was suitably staggered when I told them I was in my late 70s!

I put my youthful(?) looks down to:
Veganism
Intermittent Fasting
Exercise

And my success with the last 2 of these owes a great deal to these threads!

Congrats on your compliments NSV, B&W
Part of it I'm sure is your mental outlook: you seem enthusiastic & cheerful, eager to learn new things
Cardio fitness gives you energy, so you probably have a brisk walk & general movements. Those muscles will make you look younger too

Hi again everyone
I'm actually really ashamed, but I've realised that being a part of this group makes everything so much more sustainable somehow. I did really well before Christmas and was a total convert, losing a little over a stone in 5 weeks. Then Christmas came and went and I reverted to my old habits. I had a half hearted attempt to get back on the 5:2 about a month ago, but it only lasted a few days and I'm sorry to say I'm back where I started from at 11st 7 - 2 stone from where I'd like to be .

So. B2B today and tomorrow to get back on track and then that's it, no going back. I'll try and post every day but work shifts so forgive me the odd missed one. Also am going to Scotland for a few days later this week (hence the B2B now)...any tips advice for those of us who find it all slips away after a couple of 'bad' days BigChoc?

I'm leaving the fasting alone for half term but annoyingly I'm stuck at 12 stone 0lbs 1/8 still when I had my weekly weigh in today. I may squeeze in a 16: 8 if there is to be feasting

Evening all

Yesterday was DD's 9th birthday, I didn't have any cake

Been out walking again today, did 8 miles this time - and the pace is improving all the time... fastest mile today was 16.07 - it was the last mile too AND included a hill! I think by then I was pretty tired, had fasted since 7pm the night before and it was about 12.30pm we finished - so was on a power walking trip to get back the the car Was a lovely walk through the new forest though - with quite a few hills so really good training!

Am very tired tonight, but resting - going to watch call the midwife and then have a lovely bath - bliss! Its my birthday Thursday and half term too, so not sure how many fasts I'll manage this week, hopefully at least a couple of mini's - today will be one at least, only on 600 cals so far - got to make dinner yet mind.

Had another NSV on friday afternoon which was fab, so - went to get the kids from the school run, was lovely and sunny so just wearing a fitted fleece instead of my big winter coat. Saw one of the school mums as I drove into the car park, got out and went to say hello.... her first words were 'whats changed?! If I hadn't seen you waving from the car, when you got out you looked like a completely different person!' ... It took us a few mins conversation to realise it was my weight loss and she hadn't seen me coatless for a while! She was amazed!

Wow, your walking is coming along brilliantly, MrD
You signed up for a moonwalk - when is that ? (or has it already happened)
That compliments NSV shows you need a name badge now, or your old friends won't recognise the sleek new MrD

Hello, can I join? I have a stone to lose, a BF baby who doesn't sleep, twin toddlers who rampage through my life like a horde of barbarians and no real self control. I hate calorie counting - hate hate hate - but after a day of trying low calorie, high fat I think I hate that more!

I was thinking of doing 16:8 - I tend to eat loads in the morning as I'm a bit of a sucker for breakfast cereal and I'm also in a mood after being woken up all night and eat to cheer myself up. I think if I could get to lunchtime I would be able to control things better. Is it as good as 5:2 though? And how many calories should I be aiming for?

Please give me lots of support and motivation - I feel bad about myself and I am desperate to shift this, but I keep starting things that are too difficult or too unpleasant and I don't have the will power to see them through.

Welcome back, Maggie
This WOE is very flexible about social occasions and holidays, but you need to be actually doing it properly 80-90% of the time.

Sounds like you did very well on 5:2 when you actually did it - a stone in 5 weeks is excellent.
5 weeks on, 8 weeks maintenance is fine
5 weeks on, 8 weeks indulgence = Return to GO

Feasting at Christmas is natural, but that stone didn't return because of 10 days indulgence - your normal eating & drinking has more cals than you body can burn.

So, I strongly recommend:

Use mfp to train yourself to eat within TDEE

Of course you can enjoy social occasions, but you need to learn maintainance for most days, or you will forever be hopping on / off, losing / regaining

When you have a holiday or even a long weekend:

Fix in your calendar & stick on the fridge that you will resume 5:2 the day after your holiday ends
That 1st day can be an FD, or a healthy NFD within TDEE, no junk or alcohol,
i.e. break the holiday mindset of indulgent eating, drinking, treats.

Fix this date before the holiday, so you are psychologically prepared to resume.
Vague good intentions rarely work and you keep putting it off until next week, then the next ....until you have regained it all.

If you return to your old WOE you return to your old^ weight

Welcome, Persis

16:8 loses weight if you actually eat less.
Some people find a shorter window causes that automatically; others need to calculate their TDEE (calculator in the OP under How to Start) and mfp a deficit.

Alternatively, as a BFer, you can do 1000-cal FDs, which is much easier than standard 5:2
You could probably do that most easily with 16:8, so no breakfast and then a 500 cal lunch and a 500 cal supper, or 3 small meals.

Try to avoid sweet junk, because it causes cravings spirals.

Whatever fasting method you choose, we recommend
no snacking
so you feel fuller on decent sized meals and also because snacks are often calorie bombs
Even healthy snacks keep your insulin raised, which hinders fat-burning and makes you hungrier.

Drink lots of water every day, not just fastdays.

Thank you for the quick and lovely welcome!! Maybe i will try that then - a combo 5:2, 16:8 approach! The baby is 9 months though so not BFing loads (except at night!!) so is it still ok to do 1000 calories? Also, I worked out my TDEE and it was 2000 calories which I think I can manage quite well, do I need to add anything for the BFing?

Also.....how quickly can I expect to lose the weight if I do this properly? It's 2.5 months til I go back to work and I would love it to be gone by then.....

I'd recommend starting at 1000 on FDs.
After 2 weeks, if you feel ok fasting, you can optionally reduce this gradually to 700 cals.

Don't eat back calories for BFing on NFDs, or eat back exercise cals on any day.

If you nail the FDs, then rate of loss is dependent on 2 main factors:

a) How much you have to lose.
Those with BMI 30+ should lose much more quickly than those in / near the normal BMI (18.5 - 24.9) band
and
b) Whether you eat within TDEE on NFDs
Some people naturally eat around TDEE if they eat within an 8 or 10 hour window each day and don't snack between meals.
Others find their "natural eating" is much more than their body can burn.

You won't lose much if you eat back the FD deficit on NFDs

If you are in a hurry, then I recommend mfp for at least the 1st 7 days, as a reality check on NFDs and to highlight calorie bombs.
If mfp shows you already eat within TDEE, you can do without it.

You can eat normal food on NFDs, but if your "normal" is cake, choc, biscuits etc daily then this slows or even stops weight loss

Hi all, I've been off the wagon for the past 2 week. Horrible, stressful time with The company DH works for going into receivership and moving house during the longest heat wave in 100 years. The removal men were literally spewing from the heat. It was awful.

We are in the house now even though the house is a shit tip and I can actually find the toaster so we're back 5:2ing.

digger that sounds horrific!!!!

I'm going to do my first fast day. MFP primed and ready. So far one pint of water and one cup of coffee!!

Unusually for me I did a FD yesterday- I had to pick DD up from the airport around dinner time last night so took the opportunity of not being able to have a glass of wine and food.

Managed to last without food until 6:30pm when I had a Sausages with veg root crush Waitrose meal (329)

I topped this off with what feels like a very indulgent pudding. I have just discovered no fat Greek yogurt (57 cals per100g ) into which I mash up fresh raspberries or blueberries and add one small teaspoon of sugar. This comes in at around 80 calories and is just delicious! (Twice as big and so much nicer than the weight watchers yogurts!)

Half term this week and determined not to fall off the wagon!

Happy Monday fasting!

I did a FD yesterday, I have to say hats off to those who do them every weekend - I found it so much harder being at home with all the food around me!

Still I managed it, and managed to lose another 3lbs this week - so I've now lost 8lb over the last month. I'm really chuffed with that, although I know it's only the start and weight is so much easier to lose when there's more to lose!

Purple, like you I'm worried about half term week - I'm at a dance festival all week, so there's likely to be lots of lunches out and cakes etc... I'll try and do my two FD but I'm going to be realistic and hopefully just go for a maintenance week .

Hi, not been on this thread since November when life got in the way and I stopped fasting. I'm back on it but alternative weeks seems more achievable. I'm supposed to have just 1200 calories a day to lose weight so this week I've been sticking to that but last week I had fast days and next week I'll probably do fast days too. Is it okay to mix it up?

Hello all.
I'm properly on it today. A coffee with skimmed milk so far. I'm going to do the BSD and fast at least 2 days / week.
Having forgotten to weight in first thing, I've just got on the scales and I'm bigger than I've been for a year.
I have to do this. I am 40 this year and it's only going to get harder.
I have 3 small children and I want to be able to watch them grow up and be fit and healthy enough to keep up with them.
AND I am going on holiday with a size 6 friend in 5 months. I cannot be this size.
Long term I want to loose 40lb. I've never looked at it like this before and always thought about smaller miles stones but this time I need to look at both.
First goal is to loose 10% of my body weight, which will get me back into a healthy BMI.
Wish me luck.

Mootime- i have been at this for six weeks and have already
lost the first stone of the three and a half I had to lose.

It seems like an impossible mountain to climb but small steps and milestones is definitely the right way to go.

I was a "start next Monday " dieter for many years. So when by Monday evening I had fallen off the wagon I would say " next Monday"

It never worked- the whole diet denial thing just made me crave the things I wasn't "allowed" to have on what ever diet plan I was following.

5:2 just lets you try again the next day and your mantra becomes " I can have it tomorrow." (So long as it's not a snack but part of a meal ( right BigChoc )

But the strange thing is that now I don't really crave the cakes and crisps so much and I really do appreciate food much more .

I was up visiting my DD at the weekend. On Saturday morning we went out for a lovely cooked breakfast. that evening I had spag bowl and some wine. Sunday I fasted and today I have lost another 2lbs!

Psychologically this WOE just works for me!

Good luck- keep on this thread- the support really helps!

I'm struggling already.....its 11 on my first fast day and ALL I CAN THINK ABOUT is food!!! Am going to take the baby out for a walk and leave my purse at home so I can't pop in anywhere for a snack.

I really hope this gets easier!!!