5:2 Thread No. 60: If you tried to lose your holiday weight by eating naked in front of a mirror – but the restaurant threw you out - it's time for a science-based approach.

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS
=======

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to maintain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START
==========

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators
Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Good2Know , NHS 10 Recipes under 100 cals , Mirror 5:2 50 snacks under 50 cals
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units
BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight: 3D BMI ripped / normal , Bod Vis 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips
========

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, just count any milk / sugar calories on FDs.
  
• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice.
  

Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine.
Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs; optionally, reduce to 700 cals gradually. You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  
• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are good though!
  

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
  
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back exercise calories. Fasted training can burn more fat.
  

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.
If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals

• To speed up weight loss and to train yourself how to eat on maintenance,
  

optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
  

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)
  

Useful MN Threads
============

Browse previous 5:2 threads in the fasting section

Exercise: BigChocFrenzy's thread gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise. The OP explains the science behind fasting, exercise & health and has many calculators.

Tips and Links : BreadandWine collects practical tips & info gained over all the 5:2 threads.

Inspirational EatRiskier has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Recipes: FrenchFancy has many FD recipes. Post your own here too.

Maintaining: talkinpeace's thread is for those who have successfully lost weight on 5:2/IF and are now maintaining (some for 2 years +)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health
=========================

BBC article on the Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

A science Study specifically addressed the effect of this diet on obese men & women, wrt health and weight loss:

"... After 8 weeks of treatment, participants had an average 12.5 lbs reduction in body weight and a 4cm decrease in waist circumference. Total fat mass declined by about 12 lbs while lean body mass remained relatively constant."
i.e. almost all the weight lost was FAT, not muscle or water, - in most diets, 25% of lost weight is muscle, up to 50% for sleb crash diets.

It also describes improved blood values:
"Plasma adiponectin, a protein hormone that is elevated in obesity and associated with heart disease, dropped by 30%. As did LDL cholesterol (25%) and triglycerides (32%)."

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Some of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His recent article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Also this interview with a leading researcher into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
This has created a wealth of very valuable practical knowledge to help us all.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

[missjemima]

Thanks Granny and BigChoc I am absolutely starving! Saving all my cals for dinner so I can sleep easier. I used to find it so hard to fall asleep with a hungry tummy, at least during the day I can distract myself I know this will all get easier, the first day is hard though!

[CharleyFarleyy]

Yes I weighed myself Saturday last week before lunch and today before lunch and was a stone lighter! (Apparently)

Boots scales agree with my scales now so will see what next week brings.

Will definitely try and be consistent with weighing from now on with all the tips you gave me

[shortaris1]

Yep Bigchoc just drinking water and had spiralizer courgetti for tea last night and a spiralizer carrot salad with lunch today. I'd bloody love a drink to be honest but not going to obviously til I feel better.

I'll have a look at the exercise thread. I do a class or two a week usually and normally a weight workout and sometimes hot yoga but have been a bit out of the routine lately. Had planned to do more this week but the uti and starting work back up was enough to be getting on with! Booked on a kettle bell course for Monday night and just need to plan my exercise in. I'm fine to fast on a fast day evening but not tried it on a fast day first thing yet. Bit scared I'd be hungrier all day but need to try it. Definitely wouldn't be able to do weights after I fast as I wake up slightly shaky and starving. Everyone's different and I guess it's about working out what works for you.

[BigChocFrenzy]

Phew, Charlie if 2 sets of scales agree, sounds like you have lost at least several lb, even if you weighed yourself under 2 different sets of conditions at home.
You might well notice the difference in clothes fit. Have you tried an outfit that was tight befor, to check ? Or did you remember to take initial waist and hips measurements ?

Not long to go, MissJ
I recommend cups of herbal tea, to help your tum feel a bit fuller. Also warms you up a bit - you may feel cold on FDs until you get used to fasting.
I like ginger tea on FDs, because it is warming.

Short On FDs, I found 2 meals worked best for me, to maimtain good performance. See what suits you.
I usually have a 350 cal lunch because I have evening training, then a 150 cal protein shake after gym because it's too late for a meal.
If you train in the morning, I suggest you divide your calories into about a 300 cal lunch and a 200 cal supper, rather than just 1 meal.

That's excellent, maintaining over the hols, lovemyway
That's a good BMI, depending on your frame size and musculature.
Is your waist / height in the ideal range of 0.38 - 0.45 ?

When you are maintaining, you can eat over TDEE if you have fast days, because you can eat back the calorie deficit. Fasting on maintenance brings health benefits and more enjoyment on NFDs than a conventional WOL, win-win.

[BigChocFrenzy]

Granny That's a good rate of loss, especially since you haven't much to lose. Just relax and try to set up some healthy living habits for maintenance - it takes at least a month for habits of any sort to become permanent.

[CharleyFarleyy]

I did notice my jeans did p a bit easier this morning, didnt take any meaurements though, will definitely so that so that i can compare next week

[lovemyway]

Oh that sounds fab big choc and makes me feel better. The dark nights and tom looming always makes me want to comfort eat. But yes my waist to height ratio is low at 0.41.5. I'm heavier on the hips but they've shrunk too I do want to lose a couple more pounds just as a safety net but not in a hurry.

[lovemyway]

totm

[BigChocFrenzy]

With that h/r you are already very lean, lovemyway
I suggest you just concentrate on maintaining for the next 6 months without forcing a defcit, relax and see what your body does:
You may find that you maintain the first 2-3 months as your body consolidates and gets used to its lighter weight, but once that has happened, you may be able to lose those 2lb over a few months.
e.g. IIRC Betsy went into maintenance for a while, then without trying lost 1lb per month for 7months.

[BigChocFrenzy]

Congrats on a really good start, Charley

[shortaris1]

Thanks bigchoc I'll experiment a bit. Never not eaten breakfast in my life so not sure about doing that. I might try it. I usually only have 100 cals on FD's but it's something

[mimiasovitch]

Morning all. I ended up on about 900 calories yesterday, which I'm quite pleased about. I appear to have tonsillitis, and am running a low grade fever, so will eat if I feel like it, though my stomach is turning at the thought of some foods. Unsurprisingly, not at the thought of toast. I can always eat toast. I will have to wait a few days before trying out my new trail shoes I think.

[BigChocFrenzy]

I hope the tonsilitis goes soon, Mimia
Yes, forget fasting until then and keep drinking lots off water
Pasta is nice & soft for a sore throat - mac'n cheese is easily digestible & comforting, say with raw tomato on the side.
Greek yoghurt with fruit also slides down easily.

Shortmformfasted training, I recommend a double espresso 10 mins beforehand. It helps mobilise bodyfat for use as fuel, so can feel like an energy boost.

[shortaris1]

Thanks Bigchoc anything else I could use for that. I'm not a coffee lover.

[lovemyway]

Thanks bigchoc that is sensible advice. I am happy with my size, just need to tone it. The photo on your exercise thread resonates with me. The one about losing weight making you look good in clothes but exercise makes you look good naked.

[diggerdigsdogs]

3rd fast of the week. I'm stupidly, rediculously proud of myself. This feels utterly possible long term unlike every other diet I've tried.

Also they had a nutritionist on breakfast tv today discussing diets and the nutritionist said she did 6:1 for the health benefits. :)

[shortaris1]

Well done digger that's amazing!

[LetMeDriveTheBus]

Thanks BigChoc. Like everyone else, I really appreciate the time you take to respond, acknowledge and encourage .

I'm only 1 pound over my maintenance bracket now and feel a million times better than I did a few days ago. I'm back ON IT!!

Got a dinner out with friends tonight so will just have soup for lunch.

[BigChocFrenzy]

Good for you, Digger Give yourself a big pat on the back.
Fasting gets easier too, once this WOL becomes a habit.
Several of us here came to fasting for health benefits and weight loss was a happy side benefit.
My PhD is hard science and and I came to this WOE after reading research by leading scientists that fasting reduces the risk of some ailments like dementia, Parkinsons, T2, CVD.

Short You can treat a double shot of espresso like a medicine before training, i.e. gulp down without tasting, 10 mins beforehand, to get yourself into a hard, mean mood

Any high caffeine drink of below 20 cals would work the same, e.g. certain v strong coffees. But no milk or sugar.

I NEVER take caffeine or energy pills, too easy to overdose
My fav drink is All Stars Liporush, 200 mg caffein, which also has amino acids to feed muscles, all for 9 cals total in a 250 ml bottle. (I order crates of it from Germany)

[confusedandemployed]

Afternoon all. I only managed 1 FD last week thanks to a filthy cold, which is finally lifting. I also did an Insanity class on my FD which I found extremely hard. In all honesty I shouldn't have been fasting or exercising. I was fine after a bit of food though.

Cold has now virtually gone and I've managed 2 more gym sessions so 3 this week. I'll be back up to 5 next week.

Fasting Tue and Thu this week, planning another Insanity class on Tuesday too. Hopefully I'll manage this one ok!

Hello to all the newbies who've joined since I turned into a bit of a lurker. Welcome to the best WoE ever!!

[EwanHoozami]

Hello all - FD here and it's been so easy. 7pm and I'm just about to have a bowl of butterbean and bacon soup after nowt but water, bovril & coffee all day.

I think this is week 5 for me. Still have no working scales and haven't dared try my size 14 jeans on in case I still can't do them up and I fall sobbing into a packet of hob nobs. But I feel pretty good.

[lovemyway]

Read in the paper this weekend that a version of 16:8 has an effect on how we burn fat. It said eating breakfast 90 mins later and dinner 90 mins earlier reduces the rate of many illnesses. I've been finding it very easy to miss breakfast at the weekend, eat at 1ish then 6ish and nothing else. Will use this to help me maintain and might try it in the week on NFDs too.

[BigChocFrenzy]

Well done on your FD, Ewan
I recommend you monitor progress in some way, say once per month, just to check you are losing ok, or if you need to tweak your WOE (NFDs).
You could measure waist, or maybe buy some scales if you can afford to.

After 5 weeks you should notice a difference in clothes fit, so I suggest you try on something that was tight before, to see if it easier to get into now.

[BigChocFrenzy]

lovemyway There was research showing that even reducing to a daily 12-hour eating window, i.e. 12:12, improved some health marker, such as wrt insulin metabolism.
E.g. start breakfast 8 am, finish supper 8 pm, with no calories from 8pm - 8am.

[diggerdigsdogs]

Thanks BigChoc and ShortAris

SV this morning too. Lost 0.5kg