5:2 Thread No. 60: If you tried to lose your holiday weight by eating naked in front of a mirror – but the restaurant threw you out - it's time for a science-based approach.

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS
=======

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to maintain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START
==========

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators
Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Good2Know , NHS 10 Recipes under 100 cals , Mirror 5:2 50 snacks under 50 cals
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units
BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight: 3D BMI ripped / normal , Bod Vis 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips
========

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, just count any milk / sugar calories on FDs.
  
• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice.
  

Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine.
Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs; optionally, reduce to 700 cals gradually. You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  
• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are good though!
  

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
  
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back exercise calories. Fasted training can burn more fat.
  

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.
If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals

• To speed up weight loss and to train yourself how to eat on maintenance,
  

optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
  

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)
  

Useful MN Threads
============

Browse previous 5:2 threads in the fasting section

Exercise: BigChocFrenzy's thread gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise. The OP explains the science behind fasting, exercise & health and has many calculators.

Tips and Links : BreadandWine collects practical tips & info gained over all the 5:2 threads.

Inspirational EatRiskier has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Recipes: FrenchFancy has many FD recipes. Post your own here too.

Maintaining: talkinpeace's thread is for those who have successfully lost weight on 5:2/IF and are now maintaining (some for 2 years +)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health
=========================

BBC article on the Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

A science Study specifically addressed the effect of this diet on obese men & women, wrt health and weight loss:

"... After 8 weeks of treatment, participants had an average 12.5 lbs reduction in body weight and a 4cm decrease in waist circumference. Total fat mass declined by about 12 lbs while lean body mass remained relatively constant."
i.e. almost all the weight lost was FAT, not muscle or water, - in most diets, 25% of lost weight is muscle, up to 50% for sleb crash diets.

It also describes improved blood values:
"Plasma adiponectin, a protein hormone that is elevated in obesity and associated with heart disease, dropped by 30%. As did LDL cholesterol (25%) and triglycerides (32%)."

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Some of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His recent article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Also this interview with a leading researcher into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
This has created a wealth of very valuable practical knowledge to help us all.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

[annielostit]

Morning all.
Everyone seems to be doing well over the weekend.
The link for trust me, I'm a doctor was interesting. The TV programme on catch up even got my oh to put down his paper.
No FD for me until Thursday, not happy with it. Feel fat & bloated but that's why I'm having tests at the drs.
All have a good week, I'll lurke till the end of the week.x

[GrimmauldPlace]

Morning all,

First FD of the week today. Had my "official" weigh in this morning after a week of 5:2. Scales showed a total loss of 7lbs! So bloody proud of myself.

Good luck to everyone else on FD's today

[Brokenbiscuit]

My first FD of the week too, but I've just weighed myself and have lost 6lb since last week, so feeling quite inspired! :)

Good luck to everyone else who is fasting today!

[shortaris1]

Well done all!

I've lost a kilo! I'm ectastic.

Monday FD here as feeling loads better. Going to see how I go today but should be ok to fast and going back to work.

Next goal is to get another 1 3 kilos off then my BMI will be in normal range.

[MelanieCheeks]

Well done all you losers! I just bought a new set of scales, so I've got my start point. It was bad, but not as bad as it might have been. FD today - have a home made green ginger soup for lunch, and will do some sort of egg and vegetable dinner.

[boldlygoingsomewhere]

Great losses being recorded- well done everyone!

Attempted to find some trousers to buy yesterday and left town feeling very fat and despondent. I have so much fat around my middle compared to the rest of me. I sometimes feel that even doing 5:2 and combining it with some 16:8 days isn't enough to shift it. I think I'm hitting that wall I've had on previous diets where I don't seem to make progress quickly and then give up!

Today is a FD for me so will try and remain positive.

[soupey1]

Well done everyone that has losses from last week.

End of the first week and I weighed myself this morning and I have lost 2lbs which I am pleased with. Based on calorie differential I should be losing just under a 1lb a week but even if it is just water having a good loss the first week is very motivating (especially as DH was sceptical). Today is a FD again and unfortunately I have three meetings today all of which will have tea/coffee and nice biscuits and/or cake - I will just have to exercise that willpower!

[OohMrDarcy]

Morning all,

Am going in for a monday FD this week , at the moment the plan is to go for just an evening meal (and mountains of water of course!) but I have soups / eggs etc if I need to change it around.

Boldly, sounds like you are hitting the point I did at end of October... my weight stayed pretty static for a couple of weeks (up and down the same 2lb) and I had a major wobble... what got me through - LOTS of water, and MFP everything again. Keep going - It WILL start to come off again, I'm now about 10lb lower than I was then and thats with Christmas in the mix! Trust in the WOE and it will come good again. For me, I think it was because I lost 2 stone very quickly so my body needed a chance to settle and get used to that weight before continuing. Thinking of you though as I know how disheartening it can be

well done to all the SV's going on - its a lovely feeling isn't it!

I had a massive roast yesterday - which was absolutely amazing, and also my only main meal of the day to compensate for it. had a little roll in the evening, with left over beef and a slice of brie which was delicious.

[LetMeDriveTheBus]

Wow! Some inspiring losses this morning.

FD for me today but am at home with the kiddies which may make it tougher. Boredom is a snacking trigger for me.

[Iamblossom]

Fell off thread!

Am managing to maintain with one FD at about 800 and then staying 200/300 under tdee a couple of times a week. Massively aided by not drinking, although did have some wine on Saturday night. Am over tdee 2/3 times a week as well but it all seems to balance out...

[mootime]

Ooh I lost you!
Will catch up later. FD today and feeling motivated after a 4lb loss over the last week.
Almond milk coffee so far today and will stick to drinks until supper.

[BigChocFrenzy]

Congrats on your SVs, digger, MrsFizzy, Broken, soupey, short
Great progress

I hope the doctor's visit is productive, Annie

[BigChocFrenzy]

Be patient, Boldly Plateaux do happen, especially if you've lost some weight - your body is consolidating that loss and pausing before moving on.
IIRC, MrD had a plateau that lasted 3 weeks or more without real progress, but she gritted her teeth and got through it.

Suggestions:

• Do NOT give up. Do NOT panic.
  That weight did not suddenly appear over a few weeks, so it won't disappear within a few weeks. Be patient.
  
• It's normal to sometimes have a week or so when you don't lose.
  A plateau is at least 3 weeks. So, if it has been 3 weeks, then do post because I have special plateau-busting tips.
  
• You may be eating back the deficit on NFDs.
  So, if you don't do so already, mfp for at least a full week, to check NFDs intake vs TDEE (calculate for sedentary unless you are v active)
  
  If weight piles around your middle, that is usually related to insulin metabolism and / or alcohol. So:
  
  
• Always keep within nhs limits - see unit calculator in this thread OP, How to Start section
  
• No snacking, ever.
  It keeps insulin raised and hinders fat-burning
  
• Drink lots of water.
  Start the day with a glass and keep drinking.
  
• Try to go low GI, say Mediteranean-type food, cutting right down on sugar and swapping from junky carbs to complex e.g. quinoa, brown rice, wholegrain bread. Eat fish, lentils and beans.
  
• Eat more veg. Cut out fruit juice entirely and don't eat more than 2 portions of fruit per day, only one of which should be high-sugar tropical fruit or banana.
  
• Do some HIIT exercise. It can help insulin metabolism issues.
  If you are sedentary, start with 15 min walking intervals: alternating 1 min brisk walk with 1 min normal pace

[BigChocFrenzy]

Those with a v large initial loss will be losing some water that the body retained, usually due to excess carbs and / or booze.
This is also good, because losing excess water helps lose that puffy look. It is water the body does not want.

[SandrasAnnoyingFriend]

Morning all, some really great losses from loads of you. Yay!

Had a major blowout at the weekend at my SIL wedding. Her husband is a chef and had done all the food and it was incredible - to give you some idea, the snacks when we arrived were crab doughnuts and partridge sausage rolls and the evening food was mini plates of macaroni cheese and brioche buns filled with beef short rib, pickled radish and kimchi mayo. I refuse to feel any guilt for the amount I consumed.

FD today and feeling really hungry but will get past that soon enough. I have to go to the doctors later and am fairly sure I'll be given antibiotics (abcess/boil type thing - what a delight!). Not sure it will be advisable to fast again this week if I'm taking them? Anyone got any experience? I'm not 'ill' but I can imagine it might make me feel quite ropey to do my FD on weds or thurs.

Good luck to anyone fasting today.

[BigChocFrenzy]

Sandra I hope antibiotics zap that nasty boil soon. Sounds painful

Although it's possible to fast and take antibiotics, I'd recommend you concentrate on getting 100% well; support your body with maximum nutrients.

So, have a Healthy Maintenance Week:

• No alcohol or sugary junk
  
• Drink lots of water, no fruit juice
  
• Keep within TDEE
  
• No snacks. Have proper meals with lots of veg, some protein & complex carbs, a daily portion of fruit.
  
  Note: some antibiotics work best on an empty tum in the morning and if you avoid dairy 1 hr before and 1 hr after taking them.
  So you might do best on 16:8. Ask your doc.

[GrimmauldPlace]

Aaargh I've just given in to the hunger pangs and had a snack I've been doing so well, had some bad news over the weekend so I've been feeling really down. My usual coping strategy is to comfort eat. Which I haven't done all weekend.
It was only a few sticks of cucumber so hopefully hasn't done any damage but of course I'm now even hungrier.

Leaving the house in ten minutes and have appointments and shopping all afternoon so won't be home until 6ish. Hopefully will not give in to anything else! Although the kids Christmas chocolate is calling to me.

Hope everyone else's FD's are going well

[Vibrantella]

Happy Monday, everyone, and very well done to all the losers! I won't be weighing myself for another 10 days or so, but I have had a NSV this weekend - I met a friend whom I last saw in June, and she was amazed at the change in my body and face.

FD today, currently sipping my green tea. Dinner will be avocado, pepper and anchovies - I'm out of celery as I used it all up making bone broth (in slow cooker as we speak). I just might buy some more as I love the taste and crunch of celery, it's full of good minerals and vitamins, and all for hardly any calories. Yum!

[Brokenbiscuit]

Am on a FD today, but working from home so surrounded by temptation! Was going to drink through the day and save all of my calories for dinner time, but not sure I can make it through!

Not even sure if I'm hungry or just bored! Please help motivate me to stay on track!

[cheeseandbanana]

I hear you mrs fizzy, try not to over think it, it was only cucumber anyway. With hunger pangs I sometimes glug down a Coke Zero to bloat myself out a bit.

I've just had my 100kcal FD lunch 'monster soup' (so aptly named by my three year old!) which is mostly spinach and peas with a slice of nimble. Now got to wait it out for 400kcal supper later. Kids teatime is going to be a nightmare for me today because they'll be shovelling down loads of delicious weekend leftovers.

[OohMrDarcy]

MrsFizzy... how on earth is a few slices of cucumber failing?!?! Try and remember that its the flexibility of this WOE that makes it work , I've changed my one meal plan and just had 120 cals soup, because I'm cold and feeling hungrier as a result... its all good!

[GrimmauldPlace]

Thanks cheeseandbanana and MrDarcy I know the cucumber isn't going to make me regain the weight I've lost but the problem I have is when I start picking I find it hard to stop! So the cucumber would have turned in to just one biscuit, then ooh maybe one more won't hurt, then something else etc. Hence why I'm so overweight to start with But I haven't had anything since and I'm glugging my water like a fish.

I don't like coke zero, is diet Pepsi allowed? That might help the sweet craving a little!

[cheeseandbanana]

I totally get it mrs fizzy and it's true about the no snacking thing because it only makes you hungrier. I'm pretty sure any 'diet' soda is allowed provided there are no calories in it.

[boldlygoingsomewhere]

Thank you for your words of support, MrDarcy and BigChoc. One the plus side, FD is going well.

[Maddy128]

Hi all
Don't feel like it's been that long since I last posted and yet there's a whole new thread and sooo much to catch up on!!!

Had my birthday this weekend so over-indulged a bit. Too much cake to soften the blow of getting older!!

I'm the same fizzy -once I start picking and saying "just one" there's usually no stopping me the No Snacking rule is a harsh but very necessary in my case!!!

FD today but will be over 500 as I forgot and got breaded fish out of the freezer for dinner. Green tea for brekkie, half a pot of tomato lentil soup for lunch and breaded fish with veg will take me to about 600 I think, including milk for tea and coffee throughout the day. Does 600 still count as a FD??