5:2 Thread No. 60: If you tried to lose your holiday weight by eating naked in front of a mirror – but the restaurant threw you out - it's time for a science-based approach.

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS
=======

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to maintain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START
==========

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators
Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Good2Know , NHS 10 Recipes under 100 cals , Mirror 5:2 50 snacks under 50 cals
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units
BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight: 3D BMI ripped / normal , Bod Vis 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips
========

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, just count any milk / sugar calories on FDs.
  
• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice.
  

Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine.
Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs; optionally, reduce to 700 cals gradually. You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  
• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are good though!
  

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
  
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back exercise calories. Fasted training can burn more fat.
  

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.
If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals

• To speed up weight loss and to train yourself how to eat on maintenance,
  

optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
  

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)
  

Useful MN Threads
============

Browse previous 5:2 threads in the fasting section

Exercise: BigChocFrenzy's thread gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise. The OP explains the science behind fasting, exercise & health and has many calculators.

Tips and Links : BreadandWine collects practical tips & info gained over all the 5:2 threads.

Inspirational EatRiskier has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Recipes: FrenchFancy has many FD recipes. Post your own here too.

Maintaining: talkinpeace's thread is for those who have successfully lost weight on 5:2/IF and are now maintaining (some for 2 years +)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health
=========================

BBC article on the Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

A science Study specifically addressed the effect of this diet on obese men & women, wrt health and weight loss:

"... After 8 weeks of treatment, participants had an average 12.5 lbs reduction in body weight and a 4cm decrease in waist circumference. Total fat mass declined by about 12 lbs while lean body mass remained relatively constant."
i.e. almost all the weight lost was FAT, not muscle or water, - in most diets, 25% of lost weight is muscle, up to 50% for sleb crash diets.

It also describes improved blood values:
"Plasma adiponectin, a protein hormone that is elevated in obesity and associated with heart disease, dropped by 30%. As did LDL cholesterol (25%) and triglycerides (32%)."

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Some of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His recent article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Also this interview with a leading researcher into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
This has created a wealth of very valuable practical knowledge to help us all.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

[Vibrantella]

Kitchen closed on well under 500 cals. Just drinking my mug of chicken stock (from a gluten-free Kallo stock cube, 35 cals), and might have 1-2 cups of green tea before bed.
I finally got the courage to measure my waist, and it's currently at 0.57 of my height. Actually much better than I was thinking (dreading!). I also keep forgetting that I have now shed more than half of the unwanted extra weight (27 kg and have another 18 kg to go). Ah, well, keep on keeping on!

[Uphillanddowndale12]

Only twigged there was a new thread this morning - my brain is starved!!
I've done my first week and weighed myself this morning to find I'm 3 lb lighter :) :) :) I know that it's early days and fasting has shocked my system into shedding its fluid from my Xmas and new year splurge, but I'm happy.
I wonder if anyone saw trust me I'm a doctor last Wednesday - all about weight loss and exercise. Also I found this on Facebook which is interesting www.independent.ie/life/health-wellbeing/healthy-eating/the-cheats-guide-to-losing-the-flab-for-firmer-flesh-with-michael-mosley-34325935.html hope I've done the link right.

[EverythingisonmyMurtaughlist]

Weighed myself today, surprised as was less than I expected but still too much. I suspect my first week on 5:2 has helped get me the lower number.

[LetMeDriveTheBus]

Great to see so many new fasting friends here . Love reading everyone's updates.

Thanks for the new thread BigChoc.

And thank you for your words of encouragement on Wednesday. I was really really struggling to get back on track after Christmas. Your comment about having to work at getting back on it, really resonated. I can't just expect motivation to magically appear, it comes and goes. I need to work at this, just like I work at other areas in my life.

So, I got a fast day under my belt yesterday (first since before Christmas). I have eaten well but carefully today. I am off the sugar rollercoaster and feel much better. Thank you .

[BigChocFrenzy]

Congrats on your SV and good start, Wong, Uphill

Well done on your FDs, Boldly, Vibrantella and well done on your jeans NSV, Boldly

That's excellent, maintaining over the holiday, MrsW Yes, I'm sure FDs helped.
Success on 5:2 without mfp means you have trained yourself to eat the appropriate amount for your body. Ideal for longterm maintenance.
Theoretically noone should need mfp on 5:2, but in practice most overweight people got that way because their "normal" intake is too high. So, for those who don't lose, or stop losing, I recommend mfp for at least one week, as a reality check.

Concept Most forms of IF, including 5:2, help some metabolic problems especially those associated with insulin metabolism. That category includes PCOS and some forms of acne. IF can also help asthma.
Many in these threads have found considerable improvement in PCOS, IBS, skin ailments.

That's a good link, thanks Uphill where Mosely brings several tips together in one article.
I'd read them elsewhere individually before, except for the results of his experiment on reheating cold carbs - amazing no other scientist measured that before. So, that is an excellent tip for pasta and rice lovers - heat the leftover starches, no need to eat them col.

[shortaris1]

Evening all and well done all Thursday fasters.

Good NFD for me yesterday. Finished up on 969. Not so good today as woke up with a migraine. Got a UTI too so on antibios. Felt dizzy so grabbed a sandwich and a big bag of Minstrels on the way from the doctors to my bed, which I hardly ever do. Going to have courgetti for dinner so I don't go over too much and no FD's planned til next week now. Hopefully by then I'll be on top form again.

[mimiasovitch]

Evening all. I've had a pretty good week. I'm having my second fast tomorrow, but have been within calorie allowance all week, and have been making a concerted effort to NOT SNACK - EVER. I can listen occasionally . I've also really cut down on my caffeine intake, which I thought would be harder, as my waitresses generally throw tea at me when I wave my arms at them (well trained). I really, really like Pukka brand peppermint and licorice tea, so it doesn't feel like a hardship, and I feel much better for it. I'm also starting to enjoy the feeling of an empty stomach and the anticipation of a good meal. I'm 3lb down since my first fast, and am feeling confident I can continue. I read this thread every day even if I don't comment, as it really is motivating. I love the inspiration thread too. Off for a bath now, to hide from the kitchen.

[BarnDoorForSale]

Had my 2 fast days Mon/wed, and my target of not going back over 11stone over Xmas was technically achieved as i was back under 11 by the time I went back to work. Loads of people I hadn't seen in a while noticed I looked slimmer after I went back, so it felt really worthwhile having put in the effort of those 2 first 2016 fast days.
Still a bit snack happy in the evenings, but trying to get all the snacks together and have it as a 'meal' instead of randomly grazing all day/evening. I'm binning any cheese left in the house after tomorrow.
My tdee is currently 1555 but if I get down to a mid normal bmi, it'll be closer to 1400, so I need to get used to eating at that level. Alternatively, I can see that at that weight at little exercise would make a massive difference to my daily allowance.
Time to get to the dr and see if I can get my Achilles tendinosis sorted out.

[shortaris1]

I'm the same barn I can have another 200 cals if I get up to the next activity level. That's so worth doing for me.

[LiDLrichardsPistachioSack]

Hi all, going to jump in here and say hi! I'm a re-starter, I did 5.2for a couple months in 2014 to lose some baby weight, but I was breastfeeding and I found it just a tiny bit too hard to keep it going. I did lose weight though and I'm hoping this time around it'll be easier to stick with now that the boobs have been put away!

I don't have loads to lose--I'm 5'4 and 65 kilos, hoping to get down to 60ish. I'm quite sturdy and muscly so 60 kilos is quite light for me but hey, I'll see how it goes. I've done 1 week so far, (weighed 66.5 last week) and it was easy peasy!
Lots of inspiring stories and links there, that's crazy about the cold pasta!

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome, LiDLrichards That's a good start

Well done for getting back on track, Bus
I know that was hard work for you, but you stuck to it brilliantly and you've caged the sugar monster.

Congrats on your compliments NSV, Barn
I suggest you and short start to build up exercise now. Why not pop over to our own 5:2 ExerciseThread3 and read the OP for some ideas.
You could start with the Fast Blasts described there, just a few minutes on a few days per week at home or outside, your choice. That improves fitness quickly, so you can progress to longer exercise.
If you post there about yourself, I can suggest a specific exercise plan.

[BigChocFrenzy]

Sorry to hear about your UTI short Hopefully the antibiotics will zap kit quickly.
In the meantime, try to avoid crap and booze; your body needs nutrients, not irritants. Drink lots of water, to,flush your system.
If you don't feel quite up to the next FD, you could make it a mini (sub-1000)

[Breadandwine]

alcohol during / right after a fast removes health benefits

I didn't know that, BC, thanks.

TBH, the FD was just badly planned and I'll avoid that mix-up next time. Normally, I don't drink on FDs - and, now I'm not drinking during the week (unless we're out to dinner) there shouldn't be any clash.

I do like to fast 24 hours once a week, a la Brad Pilon, it gives me so much energy.

Tks for the link, Uphill!

[mimiasovitch]

Good morning fasters. I went to bed planning a run first thing, plus a FD, but I've woken up following a disturbed night with an incredibly sore throat, and generally feeling a bit crap. What's the score on fasting when under the weather? I'll probably skip the run and go for a walk but seeing as I don't have a cold is fasting ok? I have my dh here pestering me to go out for breakfast, and I'm not sure I'm strong enough to resist.

[BigChocFrenzy]

Mimia If you have a fever, dizziness or upset stomach, we firmly recommend not to fast or exercise - equally of course don't force yourself to eat.
For lesser symptoms, it's safe to fast, but perfectly ok to decide you won't.

I usually add this:
If you are too ill to fast, you are too ill for alcohol and sugary crap

Sounds like you'd enjoy breakfast with your DH and would benefit from a relaxed but healthy day
Drink lots if water, eat reasonably nutritious food within TDEE to support your body fighting off a possible illness.

[mimiasovitch]

Thanks for the reply. I've decided to skip breakfast, but mainly because I thought dh was working and planned accordingly. Whenever he decides that in fact he'll take a day off he becomes really difficult to manage! So I've kicked him out with dd2, and I'll decide at my own pace what to do. I really hate making decisions under pressure

[Brokenbiscuit]

BigChoc, I just wanted to say how amazing I think you are for taking the time to offer so much advice and support to others. It's really kind of you. :)

[CharleyFarleyy]

Well, first week of doing 5:2 and accordig to my scales i have lost.... a stone haha!

Obviously my scales are wrong!

I am going to go to Boots and pay to use the proper scales and then I will have an accurate result and then I can compare to next weeks weigh in

[BigChocFrenzy]

Charley Mosely reported someone lost 19lb in the 1st week of his VLCD diet. However, the most I heard anyone lose in 5:2 week 1 was 10lb and they were v high BMI (and it would have been mostly retained water)

So, wait for Boots' scales before celebrating but you have likely lost at least a few lb, if you have a fair bit available to lose.
Try to weigh using exactly the same clothes and shoes off - they probably won't let you weigh in the nip !
You can monitor difference in clothes fit, especially around the waist - some folk notice even a few lb makes a difference here.

I'm glad you find the advice & info helpful, Broken
As a science geek, I find fasting is an exciting new field with so much potential for improving health.
So, I am very interested how everyone finds it in rl and how we can make it sustainable for more people.

[BigChocFrenzy]

You have to pay to use their scales
Do weigh yourself afterwards in the same clothes on your own scales, to see the difference.

[BigChocFrenzy]

btw, do you mean you weighed yourself the week before and today, then noticed the 1 stone difference ?

Try to weigh under identical conditions:
. naked in the morning (not at Boots !) after loo but before even a drink of water
. keep scales on a hard surface, not carpet, in exactly the same place
. switch on scales and count to 3 before stepping on them
. step, don't jump and don't lean to the side or otherwise change position
. check batteries and see if replacing them makes them agree with Boots

[missjemima]

Hello! Am joining you all after a long break. I used to lurk on this thread back in 2014! First FD today and am starting to get the familiar gurgles in my tummy. BMI is 27.5, very keen to get firmly in the healthy zone. Feeling pumped

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome, MissJ and good luck on your 1st FD back

A Saturday FD is v useful to prevent weekend excesses undoing a good week.

[lovemyway]

8 days into dry January and not missing the booze at all and neither is DH. He has started to question his drinking after January. I didn't expect this and I think the recent press and new guideline amounts have come at the right time.I think we will probably drink much less often and drink slower and appreciate what we are drinking more.....we'll see. As for 5:2, I've maintained my pre Christmas weight rather than lost but I think as my BMI is now 21.5 ,It's going to be slow to lose more. Been good on FDs but I know I've eaten more than TDEE on NFDs. I'm fine with that because it's my choice and I really enjoyed those extra cals. It really doesn't help when your DD makes Danish pastries in food tech!!! It would break her heart if I refused one on diet grounds, so I made sure I had it with my lunch and not as a snack

[Grannygrots]

Lovely to catch up on so many SVs and non NSVs on such a dreary Saturday.

BigChoc I second Brokenbiscuits thanks, and also to all the others who come along with advice and support.

MissJ hope your first FD is going well - hunger pangs are entirely normal, you just have to tell your brain it's no big deal. If you can bear to do it, logging your food and drink calories on MFP is very worthwhile if a little time consuming at first.

Weighed myself this morning and I am down 0.7kg on the week, around half of which must be water as according to MFP my calorie deficit should see a loss of 0.4 kg per week. Slightly disappointed, although realistically it's spot on. Mind games.