5:2 Thread No. 59: Oh the weather outside is frightful. But the fasting is so delightful. And since we've no place to go, let's jump back in the 5:2 flow !

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to maintain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START
==========

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators
Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Good2Know , NHS 10 Recipes under 100 cals , Mirror 5:2 50 snacks under 50 cals
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units
BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight: 3D BMI ripped / normal
Bod Vis 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, just count any milk / sugar calories on FDs.
• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice.

Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs; optionally, reduce to 700 cals gradually. You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are good though!

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back exercise calories. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF. If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals

• To speed up weight loss and to train yourself how to eat on maintenance,

optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

Browse previous 5:2 threads in the fasting section

Exercise: BigChocFrenzy's thread gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise. The OP explains the science behind fasting, exercise & health and has many calculators.

Tips and Links : BreadandWine collects practical tips & info gained over all the 5:2 threads.

Inspirational EatRiskier has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Recipes: FrenchFancy has many FD recipes. Post your own here too.

Maintaining: talkinpeace's thread is for those who have successfully lost weight on 5:2/IF and are now maintaining (some for 2 years +)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting
===================

BBC article on the Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

A science Study specifically addressed the effect of this diet on obese men & women, wrt health and weight loss:

"... After 8 weeks of treatment, participants had an average 12.5 lbs reduction in body weight and a 4cm decrease in waist circumference. Total fat mass declined by about 12 lbs while lean body mass remained relatively constant."
i.e. almost all the weight lost was FAT, not muscle or water, - in most diets, 25% of lost weight is muscle, up to 50% for sleb crash diets.

It also describes improved blood values:
"Plasma adiponectin, a protein hormone that is elevated in obesity and associated with heart disease, dropped by 30%. As did LDL cholesterol (25%) and triglycerides (32%)."

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Some of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His recent article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Also this interview with a leading researcher into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
This has created a wealth of very valuable practical knowledge to help us all.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

miss fizzy, eat up to your tdee when your hungry. Don't think you can't. Watch for a week or so, you may have been going over for a time. Log onto mfp to check portions etc. It's easy for portion distortion or snack attack to up the Cal's without thinking.2 cheeky biscuits a ' not so small' glass of something???

Thanks everyone. Nearly 11 without breakfast and you're right,I'm do feel fine and I think I could probably work like this no problem...

One problem I do have is that I've got a bit of a sensitive tummy, ever since having a bad stomach ulcer about four years ago. Before that I could eat anything, now I have to be careful or I get quite a lot of pain and have to take pills to deal with it. I can't eat tomatoes at all really, so beans on toast and anything based on tomato sauces is out (I don't eat meat though I do eat fish, so tomato-based things used to be a real staple for me). I also have to be careful with beans and pulses, and not eat fruit or anything acidic on an empty stomach. So I think for me the best thing to do on FDs is to base my meals around porridge, vegetables, and complex carbs.

Happy New year everyone - I hope I can join you on this thread.

I'm not new to 5:2 or IF, nor to many other ways of trying to lose excess fat (BMI up to 40 at my worst). In the last year I was diagnosed with Type 2 diabetes, at my highest weight, but told that I should manage it by diet and exercise, no medication. So, as I don't want to lose my eyesight, legs or kidneys, I managed to lose some fat. The way I did it is through a low carb diet, as testing my blood glucose after every meal showed that carbs are very bad for my levels. Researching T2D online led me to the work of Dr Fung (intensivedietarymanagement.com) who strongly recommends fasting for both fat loss and diabetes management.

So, for the last couple of months or so, I have been fasting on Mondays and Fridays, with a mini-FD (800-1000 cals) on Wednesdays too. My BMI is still in the obese category, 31.3 at this stage (actually, before Christmas & NYE - will weigh myself on Wed), but I'm very happy with my progress.

I'm finding FDs are remarkably easy for me this time, and I have a theory why that is. Because I've been on LCHF for about 6 months before starting IF, my body has already adapted to burning fat rather than carbs for energy. I still eat very low carb on both FDs and NFDs - this way I have no wild swings in my energy levels, nor any uncontrollable cravings/hunger.

Today is my first full FD since before Christmas, and I'm sincerely looking forward to the digestive calm. I did have a few days of 16:8 when away at MIL's, and a mini-FD last Wed, but I find full FD's almost meditative, as both my body and mind have a rest from food.

Sorry for the novel, and good luck to all! :D

Morning all

I've weighed in today and can confirm that I'm starting my official 2016 fasting season at 15st 2lb - exactly where I stopped 2015 Am over the moon!

Mrs Fizzy - what activity level did you set? and how heavy are you? My TDEE was pretty high when I started with a BMI of 42.4. The idea is you use sedentary activity level unless you're extremely active - and then you use one below what you think it should be, as calories burned are normally less in reality. Hope that helps

Olives - a yummy vegetable soup sounds like it would be good for you? I'd try and avoid many carbs on a FD but if your diet is restricted, go with what you need - salmon and veg / prawn stirfry - could they work?

Morning all. Thanks for offer of personal support shortaris!

So I weighed in this morning at 8 stone 8 pounds. Which is basically my happy weight.

This is after at least the last 7 days (skiing) of this being my typical menu (bigchoc look away):

Breakfast - 2 poached eggs and two slices of ham, a plain yoghurt
11am - a large beer or vin chaud, pringles
Lunch - usually a large salad covered in dressing, smoked salmon, loads and loads of bread, loads of chips, at least 2 glasses of white wine
Pre Dinner - loads of nuts, at least 2 large g&ts, couple of glasses of prosecco, pringles/crisps, cheese and crackers, various canapes
Dinner - at least 3 or 4 glasses of red wine, starter and main course - I never ate the pudding and I mainly ate veg for the main course - I was stuffed by then as you can imagine!
Post dinner - a baileys, more fizz maybe, a couple of chocolates

Skiing for at least 3 hours a day obviously helped, but really!!?? I expected to put on at least half a stone.

So - my plan is to do a couple of mini-fasts a week, just to keep balanced, and get to the gym as much as possible to tone up. And stay within TDEE as much as possible. And apart from 2 planned nights, DH and I are doing dry January. As you can see from the list above, this is beyond required. DH needs to lose a stone.

Nothing to eat so far today, just water and coffee.

well done Mr Darcy - that is fabulous.

Get you blossom!

The preparation of getting under the happy weight before you went obviously helped a bit, plus all the excercise - the food you ate (ignoring snacks and booze) was reasonably healthy which should have helped too, you should be proud!!

I have a feeling when I come back from my summer holiday I shan't have as much good news!!

Eggs are your friend then Olives?
I'm longing for my egg and ham lunch. First fast day of the year and doing paperwork at home allows much more time to dwell on hunger

Well done Blossom and Darcy

Yes, eggs and fish. Will try and up the veg and reduce the carbs, then

Hello All,
I was on this thread last year and have since completely fallen off the wagon. I tried to get back on track in the autumn but life and work stress made it too difficult. But here I am desperately hoping I can stick to it again.
My plan is to try to have a strict couple of weeks, to give myself a psychological boost weightwise. Normally a large chunk of my regain is water, and with the amount of carbs and booze consumed over the last two months I assume that this is the case again.
I have actually meal planned for the week which is almost unheard of, so wish me luck.

I have regained 1 of my lost 2 stone and I need to loose another on top of that before I am 40 in December.

Fasting today and so far so good. Just having my lunch of a milky coffee, then it's tea and water until my chicken stew this evening.

Olives Many of us who are used to fasting have noticed we have greater mental clarity on FDs. We avoid the post-lunch slump and have extra time to do things, because of less time on eating and meal prep.
Many of us also prefer fasted exercise and can maintain high intensity performance for 1-2 hrs.

If you are concerned, I suggest you get used to fasting on your days off, then move to FDs at work.

Ewan Working with lovely food on NFDs, you absolutely must keep to
NO snacking, no nibbling
Unless you are a chef, no tasting at all.
Eat proper meals only.
If you don't have time at work, then eat a protein & complex carbs breakfast before you start, keep drinking at work, then eat when you finish.

I suggest you roughly plan your NFD meals the day before and then don't deviate from the plan. You need to get into a routine - it normally takes at least a month to learn new habits.

Wow Mrdarcy that is fab! Great that you're not resting on your laurels and are getting straight back into it. This is where I failed a few years ago. I maintained for so long I thought I was invincible and stopped weighing only to find the inevitable. It will catch up with you if you don't get straight back on track.
FD here, nothing but tea and water so far. Day off, so post Christmas decoration cleaning to keep busy. Good luck all fasters.

Sorry I meant wow ianblossom but well done mrdarcy too!

lol I was about to reply saying I maintained for christmas, but not in total - got to get to a healthy weight first

Well done on maintaining, MrD, Blossom
MrD That's great, no backlog to get rid
Blossom Glad to hear you are joining Dry January < I hear your liver cheering >

MrsFizzy Check your activity level is correct in the calculator, because many folk over-estimate e.g. by "sports" they mean hard exercise running or in the gym, not just going for a walk.
If it seems a lot, I suggest you start with activity = sedentary and review after 2 weeks.
Mfp for at least the first week, including every little biscuit, because you may consume a lot more than your realise. If you normally have 1500-1700 and your TDEE is 2100, then it's surprising you have weight to lose.

Olives I recommend low GI FDs for everyone, for maximum health benefits.
Concentrate on protein and veg.
Add complex carbs on NFDs and say go Mediteranean, with oily fish, nuts etc. Also plain Greek yoghurt. Avoid fruit juice, because the fruit acid is concentrated.
Many folk find it best to avoid fruit on FDs, because it can upset an empty tum.

My new sedentary TDEE is 1489!! That is quite low and just shows how misleading the recommended 2000 cals for women is. I know it's an average but you can see how quickly eating an extra 500 cals a day would build up.

My DH is 6ft 4 and very active. His TDEE at moderately active is 2950 and 2650 at lightly active. Makes me think how much smaller my portions should be than his when I'm dishing up!! Reality check.

Hi, I'd like to join you please, I am new to 5:2 so will be searching this forum for suggestions especially for the fasting days.
My TDEE is 1784 according to the calculator and I think the biggest problem is that DH and DD's do not need to lose weight so I am on my own and will still have to prepare meals even if I am not going to eat them.
I also have a disability which seriously limits exercise although I am investigating options on this.

Welcome, Vibrantella and a big pat on the back for your excellent progress

Sounds like you have fully adapted to fasting and I'm sure you must feel the benefit of being so much lighter.
You must have significantly reduced your T2 risk.
I recommend you monitor your waist, since this is an important measure for T2.
Aim for waist/ height = 0.5 as major goal. Later, within 0.45 is the ideal.

Welcome back, moo You'll soon be back in the swing.
I always advise everyone to have a definite maintenance plan once they reach goal.
There are a very few folk like Blossom, for whom fasting completely resets their metabolism and they maintain effortlessly. Nearly everyone else does need to permanently modify habits to some extent.

If you return to your old WOL, you'll return to your old weight

Maintenance Tips:

• Regular fasting of some sort: 1-2 FDs or mini-FDs every 1-2 weeks and eat back the deficit on NFDs / daily 16:8 / 14:10 etc
• Weigh daily and return to 5:2 if you stay 4lb over for a week
• NO snacking, ever
• Keep drinking water
• Regular exercise - much more effective for maintenance than for weight loss
• Keep within NHS recommended limits for alcohol

My bmi is 37
I put sedentary as my activity level.
I've been using mfp to count calories for a while now and at one point was only on 1200 a day. However, I would then have a day weeks where I would overeat. But I was surprised that I wasn't losing weight when I was being strict.
I spoke to the nurse and she thinks it is a combination of being on the depo, PCOS and not trying hard enough. So 5:2 was suggested and I'm hoping that will help!
If I can eat up to my TDEE then I think this one might actually work as I hate the feeling of not being able to have a bit of chocolate or something if I really want it.

FD going well, had some salad for lunch. Having soup and vegetables for dinner. I just keep thinking to myself, it's just until the morning. Then I can eat what I want (within reason!)

Thanks Big choc.
I've just recalculated my TDEE which is 1800 and saw my BMI which is back up at 29. I'm so cross with myself. But this is it, I loved being slimmer and I want to get back down and I'm feeling motivated. I've a long way to go (again) but I'm determined to get there.
Well done for everyone who is doing well.

That's it fizzy now stop thinking about fasting, keep busy and later have a bath and fill your tummy with a hot tea and get an early night. You can do it!

lovemyway I think one of the problems for women is eating the same portions as their male partner, who probably has a much higher TDEE.
Some women have only half the TDEE of their OH, but don't realise they need half the cals.
Avoiding snacks, sweet carby junk and booze is a big help here, so you can enjoy the meals a bit more.

Welcome, Soupy

The "How To Start" section of the OP has FD recipe and meal links under "Useful Resources and Calculators"
On FDs, I recommend meals where you separate out the protein, veg, carbs, sauce
e.g. for roast beef, you eat lean meat, masses of veg, some horseradish sauce. Your family add potatoes, parsnips, gravy, yorkshire, cauli cheese etc

Weight loss is 80-90% intake for most folk and exercise is not necessary purely for weight, although it is important for health.
Why not check out the 5:2 ExerciseThread3
If you post more about yourself there - preferences, times etc - I can suggest a personalised routine.
In the meantime, I suggest swimming and also "walking intervals" i.e. alternating 1-2 mins brisk walk with 1-2 mins normal pace and building up the total time