5:2 Thread number 58: Do you eat like a Labrador ? Or nibble all day like a hamster ? Join our friendly group and get your menagerie under control.

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS:

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to maintain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START
==========

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators
Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Good2Know , NHS 10 Recipes under 100 cals , Mirror 5:2 50 snacks under 50 cals
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units
BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Body Fat: Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight: 3D BMI Visualiser with sliders & ripped / normal

FAQs / Tips:

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, just count any milk / sugar calories on FDs.
• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice.

Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs; optionally, reduce to 700 cals gradually. You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are good though!

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back exercise calories. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF. If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals

• To speed up weight loss and to train yourself how to eat on maintenance,

optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

Browse previous 5:2 threads in the fasting section

Exercise: BigChocFrenzy's thread gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise. The OP explains the science behind fasting, exercise & health and has many calculators.

Tips and Links : BreadandWine collects practical tips & info gained over all the 5:2 threads.

Inspirational EatRiskier has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Recipes: FrenchFancy has many FD recipes. Post your own here too.

Maintaining: talkinpeace's thread is for those who have successfully lost weight on 5:2/IF and are now maintaining (some for 2 years +)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting
====================

BBC article on the Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

A science Study specifically addressed the effect of this diet on obese men & women, wrt health and weight loss:

"... After 8 weeks of treatment, participants had an average 12.5 lbs reduction in body weight and a 4cm decrease in waist circumference. Total fat mass declined by about 12 lbs while lean body mass remained relatively constant."
i.e. almost all the weight lost was FAT, not muscle or water, - in most diets, 25% of lost weight is muscle, up to 50% for sleb crash diets.

It also describes improved blood values:
"Plasma adiponectin, a protein hormone that is elevated in obesity and associated with heart disease, dropped by 30%. As did LDL cholesterol (25%) and triglycerides (32%)."

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Some of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His recent article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Also this interview with a leading researcher into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
This has created a wealth of very valuable practical knowledge to help us all.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

Lovemyway sounds like me I'm a bloody yoyo!

Well coming in at 600 for today's fast day but was limited for choice on dinner we are out of My usual chicken breast and pretty much everything else so had to go for a weight watchers pie in the back of the freezer loading up with my usual veg if I didn't I would come in at about 550 but veg is good!

Don't worry keepon it's only the start of week :) have you thought about chucking the sweets out I really need to do this but there not mine they are my husbands stash I'm sure his doing it to sabotage me

Could always throw them and tell him I ate the lot haha

Nearly over yay

Just did the kids' tea - ended up sniffing Tyne cheddar for far longer than is normal. This is my first tough fd.

Come on keepon, you can do this, wanky days get to us all.go for a mini if your not up to it.
Have you got a sabutarging hubby too lottie? Mine asks every time do you want something with this tea, git!!
Tough one today, will check numbers later doing b2b.x

Yup I have one here! Actually I can avoid temptation on a FD but if his not ate it all by NFD it's a nightmare

FD today - so far all I've had is a 44 cal cuppa soup. Have an M&S ready meal for later at 300 cals, so can have a banana and oatcake before bed.

I have fasted for a few months at a time about 3 times now. It works far better for me than any type of diet. I find the short hit of not eating easier to tolerate than just eating low cal all the time.

Hi everyone. I'd like to join in, please? I've been doing 5:2 for a couple of weeks now, and so far I'm loving it, particularly not having to worry about what I eat on my NFDs.

My weight wobbles all over the place, but is ratcheting down bit by bit. It showed on the scales this morning as a loss, which I really wasn't expecting after the weekend - wine last night and one too many Aldi stollen bites.

I've hardly felt hungry, either, although I'm feeling it a bit at the moment. Can't wait for dinner - we're having chicken and veg pot pies from one of the Hairy Dieters books and I'm looking forward to it so much, I will probably end up inhaling it.

MrD and anyone else without a net loss in November (excluding deliberate maintainers):

• A small loss might be hidden by normal fluctuations / blips. Have you been eating big portions of starchy carbs ? They'll retain a lot of water. However, eventually the small losses will be bigger than the blip.

If you've lost a lot (2 stone, MrD* ) a plateau is quite common for your body to get used to the lighter weight, before it is prepared to lose more fat.
If you are following the rules: Patience and Persistence will Pop a Plateau

• Your TDEE after losing 2 stone will be lower. Recalculate, for your current weight.
  Ignore fibs from fitbit and don't eat back exercise cals
  Ideally, take sedentary TDEE.

• Reality Check: Weight loss needs a weekly calorie deficit
  . If you've a lot to lose, you can often lose the first bit without bothering about cals. But that was the "easy fat" to burn.
  . Also, you may have become blasé and think you can eat all you want 5 days a week - WRONG
  ==> If you are not mfping, do so for at least for a full week

• You can enjoy a social event above TDEE, if you bank calories.
  If you have a low TDEE, you can probably only do this one day per week, or you're eating / drinking back the FD deficit.
  For a 1500 TDEE, the FD deficit is only 2000. If you have 2 NFDs @ 2500, you've eaten back all the deficit. Boozy pizza nights out could even be 3-4000 cals.

• Are you staying home, but eating too many calorie-dense treats, like cake, biscuits, cheesecake, latte ?

• Do you nearly always manage 2 decent (< 700 cals) FDs per week ? Or 3 x sub-1000 cal days ?
  NO sugary treats or booze on FDs
  They remove the health benefits of fasting and use up calories that should be nourishing your body.
  Also, sugar & booze are notorious for starting cravings spirals, which spike insulin, make you hungry and sabotage your FD.
  A healthy adult should be able to go one day without food / drink "treats"
  By definition, a "treat" is not everyday food, but occasional.

Keepon If you really need a sweet junk jar in the house, I recommend you stick a huge label on:
Reserved for kids. Not for keepon

Welcome, Bugrit Good to hear you are enjoying the WOE.

I can't fast when I am overtired. I can't do two days together.

This week is tricky - I work in London and usually stay over in the week, but I can't fast on the day I go down as I get up at 5.20am and I am too exhausted and the day is too long. Tomorrow I go to London, Wed is my Nan's funeral, Thu I go down to London (and have a drinks thing after work). Fri I may be able to fast but dp doesn't like it because he likes us to go out and do something on a Friday.

But I'll probably do Friday, so Monday and Friday this week. Was Wed and Friday last week.

Thanks for the tips BigChoc - as ever very wise and knowledgeable!

I do manage my two FD's a week, and try to bank a couple of hundred cals a day on NFD's for the weekend - not to splurge, as I don't often, but more so I can not worry about MFP on the weekend.

Have been recalculating TDEE every 7lb or so, so I know thats correct.

I know last week I did less moving in general than normal (thanks to poorly DS sprawling on me constantly, plus dropping DD in car near school so not even walking then)

I have been eating a little more in the way of carbs, this is true - nowhere near what I was before- but maybe I haven't been upping the water enough to help compensate.

I have also been bunged up a bit (resolved today I think, huzzah) which may have hid a small loss too possibly.

I do MFP, but admit I haven't been stringent in it as had got comfortable that I knew what calories I was having and often keeping rough count in my head... This was I guess too soon, and will try to go back to MFP everything in the week until Xmas - see how that goes.

Am keeping on and pushing the disheartened voice to the back of my brain. I've never sucessfully lost this much weight before - so have never had to experience the low after the high, a plateau is perfectly possible and normal too, just got to get used to that and not expect it to be constant all the time!

one little NSV though - on sunday we went to get some christmassy photos done by a friend of mine... bought a christmas jumper in sainsburys, but they didn't have any 18's - I bought a 16 and figured I'd hope for the best, if it didn't fit I'd just wear a different one, but it fit fine! Another top I bought at the same time (also a 16) technically fits, but is a bit tight in the sleeves... hopefully that will fit soon too

509 FD, kitchen closed.

My tea was exactly the vegetable curry described up thread!!

Struggling to keep up with this thread

FD for me tomorrow. I'm just maintaining now, down to a size 10 and happy to be this size for the time being.

Well done to all losing weight, love 5:2

Had a successful fast day today. I think my body is gettin used to it as I barely feel hungry anymore and can also do 16:8 on NFD now.

Thanks for the tips, BigChoc. Looking at that list, I think it's the starchy carbs and not enough water to compensate.

Will keep going and maybe only way every month or so so I don't get disheartened.

*weigh

mad are you just doing one a week now?

Evening all. FD done for me at 420 but it's prob closer to 500 in reality as I did lots of cooking and tasted a few mouthfuls for seasoning etc.

Had this for tea. ITS A KEEPER! So lovely and not remotely 'diet' food like cafedelites.com/2015/08/03/spinach-and-ricotta-zucchini-cannelloni/

I was awful at the weekend. I know I say it a lot but I will be happy to maintain. Just couldn't stop eating crisps!

I usually fast tues and Thursday but have an outing on Thursday so I've done today and weds. I'll prob make fri a mini if I can.

Blossom I do 2 per week, allow myself 500 cals for food but will have a couple of coffees with milk too.

If I feel myself gain (I am doing this all on size not weight) at all I will do a week of proper ones and will be sorted again

Kitchen closed for the day and I'm coming in at exactly 500cals, woo-and-hoo!

Have a busy week coming up ahead of our house move next week, with lots of stuff to do for the move. I'm also out for the next two evenings - (restaurant launch and a champagne tasting!). So I'll be keeping a careful eye on my cal intake for the rest of the week to ensure I have the necessary deficit at the end. I'm now happily back in the habit of not eating til after midday and just glugging loads of water instead.

Planning my next FD for Thursday.

KeepOn - don't lose heart, as a PP said, try to remember how you felt with yourself after giving in and having that sugar hit, then use that the next time you feel your resolve weaken. I also use the memory of just how smug I feel the day after a successful FD to help me push through!

Boldly, Blossom, Lottie, OutTo and all other Monday-fasters - well done! And Bugrit - welcome!

You nailed that FD on the nose as usual, Blossom

Well done to reach maintaining, MadBlonde and really good decision to have a sensible maintenance plan.
Some people just return to their old WOE, hence to their old weight.

b2b is too tough for nearly everyone, Out
I don't think even any old hands do it; I tried it a couple of times, but just couldn't exercise. How about you, tip, B&W ?

Great FD recipe, Edna
On NFDs, when I get the crisp munchies, I roast 2-3 sliced long red peppers in a teasp of oil, with salt. YUM.

Good evening!
Getting back on the 5:2 wagon today after giving myself a serious talking to at the weekend. Have exercised and come in at 400 calories for the day. Found it ok, kept myself busy and turned down flapjacks at a meeting. I need to tone up and lose about 4kg to be happy in my clothes.
I have posted previously, months ago, but am rubbish at keeping up with what everyone's up to, so I'll apologise in advance...

MrD Congrats on your size 16 NSV; you have clearly lost inches.
You may still be losing fat, just that the scales need to catch up.

If you mfp everything for the next 2 weeks say, you should see progress, or maybe identify hidden calorie bombs, or too large portions - you have 2 stone less to feed than before.
Did you start snacking / grazing ?
How is your November HealthyTuneup ?

Be careful of starchy carb portions. You don't need more than about 300g carbs per day.
Excess carbs are stored as fat, plus 3-4 x their weight in water
e.g. 250g excess carbs + 750-1000g water = 1 - 1.25 kg added weight.

Remember before how you swapped some bread for apple and still enjoyed a yummy cheese fondue ? Do some more partial swaps.

Unblocking Insides
Drink water and also try to take a brisk daily walk or other exercise.
A daily set of squats can also get things moving.

If really constipated:

• 1 tbsp olive oil
• 1 teasp lemon juice

Best to take on an empty NFD tum.

I've only had 350 cals, so am sitting wondering what to have before bed - my banana is too soggy.

Maybe an orange and an oatcake. And a sleepy tea.

Well, that pie was bloody lovely and not bad for 267 calories. Having a low cal hot chocolate and then I'm done for the day at 512 calories.

Welcome back, Fred
With only 4 kg to lose, it is often slow and you generally need to be stricter than those with a few stone to lose.
Mfp can give a reality check and speed things up.

Well done Fred, Bimble, Blossom, Boldly, Lottie, Out, Good and all the other Monday fasters.
Now drink a glass of water and clean your teeth, to avoid later temptation