5:2 Thread number 52: If you want to be delivered from temptation, but would like it to keep in touch ... join us to lose weight & improve health while still enjoying good food & wine

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced on BBC Horizon on August 2012:
Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means somewhere around the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

For most folk, 5:2 results in a weekly 3,000 calorie deficit, so averages 1 lb loss. However, some folk may lose much more quickly / slowly, or in fits & starts.
Initial weight loss may be much quicker, especially if you have a lot of weight to lose.

When you are within a healthy BMI range and just want to trim a few more lb, progress may be much slower and you may need to monitor carefully that you don't average above TDEE on non-fast days.

Acronyms & Calculators:

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight normally needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI ( Body Mass Index ) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9
FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men) or 1000 cals for BF
If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful website or app to track food & drink caloriesi

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day. TDEE is calculated from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this over the week's NFDs.

To speed up your weight loss and to train yourself how to eat on maintenance,
optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight,
but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that to maintain our new healthy weight longterm requires a permanent change in how we eat.

How to Start

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator above as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

FAQs / Tips:

• WATER: Start each day with a pint of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, just count any milk / sugar calories on FDs.
• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice.

Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Many prefer to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs; optionally, reduce to 700 cals gradually. You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar and junk food. A few treats per week are good though!

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back exercise calories. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF. If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals

• Do NOT fast: if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, have past or present EDs, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads
Browse previous 5:2 threads in the fasting section

Tips and Links : breadandwine’s thread collects practical tips and info we have gained over all the 5:2 threads. It is especially useful for newbies.

Inspirational: eatriskier’s Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.
Read to boost your motivation.
Add your own when you have lost weight too

Recipes: frenchfancy has collected delicious FD recipes from all the threads.
Post your own here too.

Exercise: bigchocfrenzy has a Thread for advice & support on combining 5:2 with a healthy exercise regime.
The OP explains the science behind fasting, exercise & health and has many calculators.

Maintaining: talkinpeace has a Thread for those who have successfully lost weight on 5:2/IF and are now maintaining.
Some of those sharing experiences have been maintaining for 2 years, which shows 5:2 is sustainable longterm.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting
==================

BBC article on the Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

A science Study specifically addressed the effect of this diet on obese men & women, wrt health and weight loss:

"... After 8 weeks of treatment, participants had an average 12.5 lbs reduction in body weight and a 4cm decrease in waist circumference. Total fat mass declined by about 12 lbs while lean body mass remained relatively constant."
i.e. almost all the weight lost was fat, not muscle, which is unusually good for a diet.

It also describes improved blood values:
"Plasma adiponectin, a protein hormone that is elevated in obesity and associated with heart disease, dropped by 30%. As did LDL cholesterol (25%) and triglycerides (32%)."

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Some of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease
Also this ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
This has created a wealth of very valuable practical knowledge to help us all.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

Congrats on your SV, Carrot a great achievement to go below pre-preg weight.
Your lifestyle NSV is really important too: now you have the tools to lose weight and to maintain.
Go for 9 stone !

Calfon I've no gluten problems, but I posted some vegan GF recipes on the recipe thread. The GF ready meals are GF but a ripoff and not always healthy.
Info about GF Diet , also JamieOliver GF Recipes

Some folk here reported 5:2 really helped their IBS symptoms, but noone with gluten intolerances has reported so far.

Could anyone with gluten intolerance post, please

Welcome, Apple, Welcome WSOAB

The knowledge of 5:2 has been refined over the last couple of years and we've found that many folk do need to control NFD calories to lose - if you have been overweight a while, then your "normal eating" is too much for your body,e.g. you may be eating as much as your OH.

Since you both have some difficulties, I recommend you each calculate your TDEE and mfp just for a week. This will show if you are overeating on NFDs. If so, you can plan how to cut back.
You don't have to continue mfping of you hate it, but you need the initial facts about weekly cal intake

Apple Since you are on 1000-cal FDs without BFing, you'll probably lose more slowly than most folk. No worries, but you must be careful not to eat back the deficit on NFDs, hence the above advice. Also, try to gradually reduce NFD cals, say to 900, then 800 etc over several weeks.

WSOAB It is perfectly possible within 4 NFDs to eat back the deficit from 3 FDs, especially if you have a low TDEE. Some folk here on 5:2 or 4:3 have had nasty shocks after mfping for a week, to find they are eating vastly more than they imagined.

There have been quite a few scientific studies on women who couldn't lose even on 1000 cals daily - or so they thought: once they were examined in the lab, it was typically found they were eating 2000+ or even 3000 + calories. So easily done in our obesogenic society with food everywhere.

If you find from mfp that you are indeed averaging within TDEE, then you should be losing quite quickly at your current weight.
So, I would then recommend you visit your GP and request some tests, e.g. thyroid

Trick to Speed up Weight Loss (only if you want)
Calculate your TDEE for "sedentary" (even if you exercise) and also calculate the TDEE for goal weight.
Eating to goal TDEE on most NFDs will speed up weight loss and also train you to eat the right amount for maintenance. Eat to your current sedentary TDEE on at least one NFD per week, to relax.

Hello ladies! I hope you are all well! Back to back FDS were ok. Not as easy as normal but not a complete pain. Managed to keep to 1200 cals yesterday and aiming to today as we are out for a treat supper tomorrow courtesy of DHs work and then a pub lunch on Sunday so banking calories rather than just wasting my FDs Days. This WOE has really changed my mentality. I used to think "Oh well we are out twice this weekend so the whole week is a right off". Now I'm trying to balance my eating around it. Even DH commented on this change.
I've also had two comments today on how well I'm looking which is giving me a real boost.

Well done, Moo NSVs for both lifestyle changes and compliments

Terrific stuff Carrot and Moo and everyone else posting successes. I find it really inspiring. Currently sitting on a train clutching my torso... did an and workout earlier which destroyed me utterly... and I love reading this thread and feeling as though we're all getting leaner and stronger together. Stops me feeling sorry for myself when my colleagues are scoffing bikkies, too.

WSOAB, please give BigChoc's excellent comments serious consideration. If you haven't been plugging everything into myfitnesspal, there is a very good chance that you could be underestimating cals. Or, if you're like me, simply forgetting stuff, esp. when eating in a rush. I sympathise:nothing more demoralising than to feel you're making no progress when you've been eating well and exercising.

an abs workout. Bloody phone!

Sounds a great workout, mildly Your abs will thank you when they stop complaining

Hello all! Thank you for your kind words earlier in the thread. I'll catch up later but felt the need to check in to keep myself focused.

FD today, so far going really well. Nothing eaten so far, planning an egg and squash and chorizo stew later.

I have found that my sweet tooth has all but disappeared since starting 5:2 last week. Is this a common occurrence? It's not something I've always had, but since pregnancy I have craved sweet things. Now that craving has disappeared -first time in 3 years!!

Does anyone know whether my approach of "grazing" on hot sugared drinks all day on a FD will be raising my insulin levels and rendering the FD pointless?

my current routine is
Mon- NFD- usually last meal around 6.00pm

Tue- FD- 7.30am 2 coffees with milk and sugar at around 150 calories then 3 more of the same spaced between around 11.00 and 4pm. 2 cans of Satan's whizz diet cola during the day and 2 40 calorie hot chocolates at night. adds up to 458 calories for the day.

Wed-NFD- 2 coffee (150cal) at 7 30 then eat normally from lunchtime till around 6.00pm

Thur-FD- same as Tues

Friday,Saturday, Sunday - NFDs

I'm not sure I'm leaving enough of a gap between calorie intakes for it to be a proper fast IYKWIM.

Just to confirm '3 more of the same' coffees are 3 coffees at 75 cals each.

MrsWhiskers Best to cut out added sugar on FDs.
The grazing wouldn't be a problem wrt timings, but that amount of sugar on so many occasions may may stop fat-burning or even start fat storage.
Sugar tends especially to pile on fat around the middle. So, although your calories remain within 500, it may not be good for body composition

Try a mixture of these alternatives to sugary drinks

1. Coffee without ANY sugar on FDs. Milk is ok.
2. Cartons / tins of veg juice or tomato juice. Have a few hot Bovrils (10 cals per teasp). Also crunch on raw carrot or celery
3. Herbal tea and add Stevia (liquorice atftertaste is not great for coffee or black tea)
4. Low carb protein shakes, each 100-150 cals
5. If you must have sweet coffee, swap sugar to Splenda or similar no-cal sweetener. For most folk also, it doesn't affect insulin levels. See how you feel.
6. Soups

Hm, not sure. Sugared drinks don't sound ideal TBH. Have you tried subbing (at least some of) them for something unsugared - veg soup or miso maybe?

When I started doing 5:2, I had quite a few mugs of tea during the day - quite a bit of milk but no sugar - gradually reduced it to two in the morning, one late afternoon (so quite close to dinner) and one in the evening, then low-cal drinks (herbals, diet cola) during the day.

hmm I can take tea with no sugar at a push so might substitute with that. Once upon a time I only took artificial sweetners and recently bought some canderel stevia- they are awful! is all stevia sweetner the same or are different brands more palateable?

I should have said that I often use agave nectar instead of sugar in the coffee but I'm not sure if that's really any better.

BC just saw what you wrote about stevia after taste-maybe this is the problem.
I suppose I could always substitute coffee with hot chocolate too. It's less calories than the sugared coffees too.

I can't drink coffee unless it either has milk (pref whole) or sweetened - if I want a coffee before exercising on an FD I use a spoonful of brown 'sweetness and light' which I think is a splenda-type sweetener. TBH I don't like it much. Is there any other non-carbonated low-cal caffeinated drink, I wonder?

MrsW Hot choc has sugar too. Agave nectar is probably as unhealthy as added sugar.

I suggest tea without sugar, since you can drink that, or herbal tea with Stevia. Rooibus tea is very healthy and naturally quite sweet, without sugar

My FDs: black coffee with Splenda for breakfast, then the rest from lunch onwards: 2 low carb protein shakes, 500ml of veg juice, Bovril, 2 x Barleans green drinks, 2 x ginger tea with Stevia,

I cut out sugar out of my coffees altogether... used to have nearly a dessertspoonful! Two months later I don't miss it at all and instinctively spat out my husband's sweet coffee when I had it by mistake. Black tea, on the other hand, still has to be sweet, so I have cut black tea out now on FDs as it seems to stimulate my appetite. Herbal teas taste great without sugar do I have those instead.

Hello everyone, congrats on successes, haven't read thoroughly yet though...

Having a lovely NFD today just fruit and soup earlier then some nice tomatoey chicken and , so on about 1200 so far... FD yesterday was good and NFD tues around 1500. We have visitors this weekend though so need to bank some calories!

I love coffee but only have semi skimmed in it, never any sugar or sweetener. other than that I only drink tea (unsweetened), water or wine really.

WSOAB I have found it v hard to lose weight since getting the mirena. Hence trying 5:2. It could of course be that I'm not getting any younger or the chocolate . But I like to blame it.

First NFD today. I was hungry when I woke but not famished. Think I've eaten to roughly tdee. FD tomorrow which should be fine - though I am ducking out of work drinks to stay on the wagon.

Errol On FDs and NFDs, I always drink All Stars Liporush 15 mins before training, because it gives me a better energy boost than anything else I tried. It is 8 cals per 250ml bottle, has equiv caffeine to 2 coffees, B vits, amino acids, no sugar.
I get crates of it from Germany (easy for me) but don't know a UK source

Had a look but only seems to be .de and a couple of middle european countries sites.

When women aren't losing (and it is usually women - biology is a bugger) it may occasionally be due to PCOS, thyroid, meds etc
However, > 95% chance it is too many calories in.

Portion size on packets assumes 2000 cals TDEE for women, so many women get used to this and more.
BUT if you are short, middle-aged, sedentary your TDEE could be as low as 1300.
Your OH may have a TDEE of 3000 [LTB !]

Thanks for the welcome backs
dotty342 I remember we always seems to be about the same.. 10st 3 is my happy weight really , id be dead chuffed to get back to it..

bigchoc bootcamp may be a bit tough right now, but maybe once ive got next weeks fasts under my belt..

I dont have a sweet tooth and cam easily do without much carb.. but I do like my weekend ]wine] , However I might be giving that up for a few weeks , ( as its my holiday soon-) but ill see how i feel tomorrow evening ( gotta be realistic)

..and exercise you see, I dont enjoy anysports /exercise (none of it at all and ive tried most things, I especially competative sports , horrendous school experiences there - I really should have got over it by now - im 57!! )

Thats always been a big problem for me .. However I did venture back to Zumba this week.. ( and i have Shred, if i can make myself do it again ) .. but really its a big stumbling block for me and I know what im like ..

.. I do like walking and do that a lot .. and cycling sometimes (as long as there are no big hills - sadly i live in a hilly area) , However my local leisure center has promised that soon they will be starting spinning classes ..when they do I might go along to that and see if I like it.

anyway last time I did it with fasting, walking and Zumba alone ..(and level 1 shred , never progressed beyond that , )

Not being negative . I just know what im like , its not good forcing yourself to do things you really hate ..

so today not a FD by well under my goal weight TDEE (its only 1250cals as I put sedentary ,,, yes gotta be realistic.. )