5:2 Thread number 52: If you want to be delivered from temptation, but would like it to keep in touch ... join us to lose weight & improve health while still enjoying good food & wine

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced on BBC Horizon on August 2012:
Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means somewhere around the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

For most folk, 5:2 results in a weekly 3,000 calorie deficit, so averages 1 lb loss. However, some folk may lose much more quickly / slowly, or in fits & starts.
Initial weight loss may be much quicker, especially if you have a lot of weight to lose.

When you are within a healthy BMI range and just want to trim a few more lb, progress may be much slower and you may need to monitor carefully that you don't average above TDEE on non-fast days.

Acronyms & Calculators:

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight normally needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI ( Body Mass Index ) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9
FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men) or 1000 cals for BF
If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful website or app to track food & drink caloriesi

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day. TDEE is calculated from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this over the week's NFDs.

To speed up your weight loss and to train yourself how to eat on maintenance,
optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight,
but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that to maintain our new healthy weight longterm requires a permanent change in how we eat.

How to Start

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator above as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

FAQs / Tips:

• WATER: Start each day with a pint of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, just count any milk / sugar calories on FDs.
• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice.

Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Many prefer to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs; optionally, reduce to 700 cals gradually. You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar and junk food. A few treats per week are good though!

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back exercise calories. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF. If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals

• Do NOT fast: if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, have past or present EDs, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads
Browse previous 5:2 threads in the fasting section

Tips and Links : breadandwine’s thread collects practical tips and info we have gained over all the 5:2 threads. It is especially useful for newbies.

Inspirational: eatriskier’s Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.
Read to boost your motivation.
Add your own when you have lost weight too

Recipes: frenchfancy has collected delicious FD recipes from all the threads.
Post your own here too.

Exercise: bigchocfrenzy has a Thread for advice & support on combining 5:2 with a healthy exercise regime.
The OP explains the science behind fasting, exercise & health and has many calculators.

Maintaining: talkinpeace has a Thread for those who have successfully lost weight on 5:2/IF and are now maintaining.
Some of those sharing experiences have been maintaining for 2 years, which shows 5:2 is sustainable longterm.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting
==================

BBC article on the Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

A science Study specifically addressed the effect of this diet on obese men & women, wrt health and weight loss:

"... After 8 weeks of treatment, participants had an average 12.5 lbs reduction in body weight and a 4cm decrease in waist circumference. Total fat mass declined by about 12 lbs while lean body mass remained relatively constant."
i.e. almost all the weight lost was fat, not muscle, which is unusually good for a diet.

It also describes improved blood values:
"Plasma adiponectin, a protein hormone that is elevated in obesity and associated with heart disease, dropped by 30%. As did LDL cholesterol (25%) and triglycerides (32%)."

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Some of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease
Also this ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
This has created a wealth of very valuable practical knowledge to help us all.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

Hi,
Completely new to this 5:2 WOE but looking forward to giving it a go!
FD will be tomorrow, and I will plan my next one in for Thursday.

Any advice for best days to exercise? Avoid FD? I'm hoping to do 30DS eventually, but I can only manage the first 15 minutes at the moment

Hope everyone is having a good week so far

30 Day Shred is eeevil RaspberryLemonade, I can't do the whole thing either! At least with 15 Minute Fit I feel accomplished because I can complete one

Back from weekend away. I'm not weighing for a week after the indulgences! (King prawns in butter, steak, icecream, wine, more steak, chocolate - it was in Belgium, would have been rude not to!)

Have a funny tummy today though - possibly the Chinese we brought to my parents so they wouldn't have to cook after having the DC all weekend. It has happened before - Chinese takeaway and Mc Donald's seem to be the culprits, but I can't pinpoint the thing they have in common (other than being very bad for me!)

Had a light day today, but not my usual FD, as I needed to eat this morning to settle the rumblings.

Will try a FD tomorrow - although my FD main meals are usually spicy, so I'm not sure how much of a good idea that might be.

Thanks bigchoc mrssteven and dotty for your encouragement

so today I didn't log my calories on mfp and after a rough mental count this evening, I think I came in around TDEE or possibly a bit less.
It actually felt quite liberating and meant I ate what I felt like when I was actually hungry.
I also had my first fruit smoothie today. mixed berries, Greek yoghurt , banana and coconut milk. It was so good I made another!

tomorrow is a FD and I find myself looking forward to it to reset after the weekend.

raspberry I was a complete couch potato before starting the shred in January this year, it does get much easier the longer you do it so don't give up. The results are fabulous too. The secret is to keep pushing just a little bit more even when you feel knackered.

Hey, Confused noone on this thread is allowed to call themselves "useless"< stern>
We're all brilliant Don't beat yourself up. You've a very busy life and you'll exercise when you can

Welcome, Raspberry, MrsTerry

Raspberry Most folk find that short intense bursts of exercise, like your 30DS, are fine on FDs and in fact help fat-burning.
Body fat seems more accessible as fuel for HIT than for prolonged steady state cardio that is not as intense. So, running or swimming 45+ mins is probably best on an NFD, also because that type of exercise can increase hunger.

MrsTerry Good first week, but I think the record was 5 lb
Some folk, usually those with quite a bit to lose, can lose fairly easily without restricting NFDs calories. Others find after a few weeks that they need to mfp to stay within TDEE.
We don't classify food as good / bad, or do "guilt" and "syns".
The best system is whatever works for the individual and is sustainable longterm.

Evening all.
I weighed myself for the first time in nearly a month today.
Bearing in mind I've been on holiday, had a boozy birthday, done bugger all exercise and been sat on my bum working......
I'd stayed exactly the same weight !!!
because I make a point of only eating one large and one very small meal a day on non gym days and non occasion days
it works

I hope you feel better tomorrow, vvv, Laska
vvv If you do tomorrow's FD, I recommend blander food that would be gentler on your tum, not your usual spicy fare.

Laska That 1lb loss last week was fine. Remember, that's the average weekly loss longterm. If you are doing 4:3, it is generally only quicker than 5:2 if you monitor NFDs, so that you don't overeat to compensate.
If you had a carby weekend, you may have water retention. See if the scales drop down again in a couple of days.
If not, I recommend you mfp for a week, just to check you actually have a reasonable weekly deficit.

Well done on your FDs, Squiggle, MrsSteven, the accidental hero mildly and all other Monday fasters. Let's all clean our teeth now.
An early night is often another useful FD benefit.

Hi all, FD for me today, but went over my 500 calories - had 700 - next FD is planned for Thursday. evenings meals are tricky, eating with the others I had quorn bolognese sauce (that I made), spinach and couldn't resist garlic bread. It's difficult to absent myself and eat on my own!

Has anyone lost weight doing the 16:8?

Tomorrow, I have planned carefully in my head what to eat and will cut back on carbs.

I am booking myself for RPM tomorrow to combine with running, does anybody do RPM?

Raspberry I've got the 30 day shred, and when I did it regularly everybody remarked on my toned arms. It really works.

BigChoc I like the early night idea on FD

Great system, tip and for the next 50 years

Well done, MrsW
I love smoothies too, a great way to boost veg & fruit.
I've learned you can add a handful of fresh spinach to a smoothie, to boost nutrients, without affecting the taste.

Mixing fruit and veg is great - I recommend 2 parts veg to 1 part fruit, for the max health & weight benefits.

Try this: 1 cucumber, 1 handful baby spinach, 2 kiwi, Greek yoghurt, almond milk & mint

You still managed a good calorie deficit, Salacious FDs are tricky when cooking for the family.
If poss, try to plan garlic bread, wedges or other delectable sides for NFDs, to avoid temptation.

People generally only lose on 16:8 if the 8 hour eating window helps them to eat fewer calories, i.e. they cut breakfast or supper, but don't eat back those calories during the 8 hours.

Successful FD here and swam for an hour.

Ds and I were going to go for a 2 mile bike ride at 6am but we both decided the extra 20 mins in bed was a better option . I also got my copy of 30 day shred out ready to do after the bike ride. That didn't happen either . If it's not raining tomorrow morning, I will do both.

Now, off to brush my teeth

Well done on the FD, Hiccup
We're all expecting your report tomorrow on the bike ride - if dry - and shred - does your roof leak to prevent this ? < stern >

Today I discovered Slim Pasta! How would have thought it - only 9 cals per 100gr serving! I made chicken noodles soup for the kids this evening from yesterdays roast chicken carcass and I had the full 270gr of slim noodles with a cup of chicken broth and about 80gr of chicken. It was a really satisfying meal for a FD and with less than 200 calories. I have also just had a cup of tea and a Kelkin GF Jaffa Cake (45 cals) and am still under my 500 so feeling fairly happy this evening. I will weigh in in the morning and see what this week's loss has been.

I can't remember who mentioned 30DS upthread but I bought the 30D beginners shred and it still works you but is easier if you have lower body injuries or dodgy arthritic knees like me.

BigChocFrenzy - don't be too impressed! I woke early and had a coffee and decided to do the shred while everyone else was asleep. It was more good luck than good management

Ha, no pressure then

Just been to give ds his hot water bottle and he said maybe give the cycling a miss tomorrow ...double shred for me!!

Hello all,

Just cleaned my teeth on my first fast day.....and I am hungry but not as bad as I was expecting. Managed to stick to 570, aim was 600.

So now I need to try not to over indulge tomorrow, but I don't think I will. It has got me thinking, if I can manage on just 600cal in a day then I think I will be questioning if I need food before eating tomorrow.

Watch this space. Do people tend to weigh in weekly, monthly, or what? I'm thinking fortnightly might be good....

Well done on your 1st FD, waves
I recommend you break your fast tomorrow with a moderate size breakfast that includes protein and avoids sugary cereals or fruit juice.
The aim is nutritious food that won't overload or irritate the tum, or start carb cravings.
Suggestions: veg omelette, porridge with fruit & nuts, pnut butter & toast.
If you like a cold drink, veg juice is v healthy and much lower GI than fruit juice.

Some folk weigh daily, others monthly. I suggest weighing weekly, after the 2nd FD, under identical conditions: naked in the morning after loo, but before eating / drinking anything. Keep the scales in exactly the same place.

raspberry - I do shred or one of the other JM dvds nearly every weekday morning, FD or not, and always before eating. If you feel like you can't do the whole thing, you can always pause, have some water and a breather and then see if you can continue. But if you can't - don't worry, just be patient and keep at it and you will get fitter and stronger.

Feel like a yoyo - back again. Fed up with feeling fed up; this pesky cold is refusing to go and am living in a house of snot and razor-blade throats - my OH gets a cold about once every 10 years and even he has had this one for the past three weeks. As "feeding a cold" has obviously not been working, have had a FD today - first for weeks - and feels good to be taking control. Had couple bowls nutritious chicken soup with plenty of veges, so don't feel deprived. Despite a ridiculously poor diet for weeks now, my weight is 0.3kg down, although realistically it's probably loss of muscle as the waistband of my work skirt feels decidedly snug.

Calfon - had to google Slim Pasta and for some reason kept reading it as Slime Pasta! What's the texture like?

Going to restart 30DS on May 1st so this cold had better be gone by then.

Sorry you've been poorly, granny, but glad to have you back with us. The combination of shred and 5:2 will soon have your waistband more comfortable.

The slim noodles arenot too bad. The texture is a bit odd and they are a bit tasteless but with a good sauce they would satisfy.

Hope you're all the mend now, granny.

Calfon, those sound interesting, tha nks.

Thank you BigChoc! I was annoyed with myself for not doing something though. I should have time today.
waves I feel exactly like that on NFDs. I have naturally fallen into mindful eating on 5:2 and I've never felt so in control of my eating. I use MFP religiously and it really helps to focus the mind.
Yesterday's FD was the hardest yet. I went to bed hungry at 8pm and I think that was because my evening meal was hastily re-planned when I realised my chicken could not be cooked from frozen. I had a piece of breaded fish with the brown rice instead and, while I love fish, it never really fills me up. Hey ho - at least I got plenty of sleep! And I didn't cave and stuck to 500cal. Looking forward to breakfast now!

FD for me and I plan on working through dinner again to keep me busy. I also find going to the gym straight from work helps prolong my only meal of the day till as late as possible whereas previously I would have gone home to have a pre workout snack.

Thanks Big Choc,

I only read your recommendations for post fast breakfast as I was tucking into breakfast! I opted for crumpets , a banana and an apple, which I'm not sure is the best thing. Surprisingly, despite being hungry as I went to bed, I have woken up not hungry at all, and feeling very sprightly!

I've put lots of veg sticks in my bag for work to snack on in case the hunger kicks in later! I'm making a real effort not to 'eat on the run' too.

Another FD tomorrow I think. Not as nervous about it now :-)

confused

Yes, I feel more in control, that's what it is. I'm deliberately not using MFP on my NFD as I have used it before and found it makes me anxious about food. But that's just me :-) however I have used it lots in the past so I have a good idea about calories and about how much I should be eating. I'll re-evaluate in a couple of weeks.