5:2 Thread number 51: Whoever said "nothing tastes as good as skinny feels" obviously never tasted ice cream or chocolate ! 5:2 is for those who enjoy good food and don't want to diet every damn day

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced on BBC Horizon on August 2012:
Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means somewhere around the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

For most folk, 5:2 results in a weekly 3,000 calorie deficit, so averages 1 lb loss. However, some folk may lose much more quickly / slowly, or in fits & starts.
Initial weight loss may be much quicker, especially if you have a lot of weight to lose.

When you are within a healthy BMI range and just want to trim a few more lb, progress may be much slower and you may need to monitor carefully that you don't average above TDEE on non-fast days.

Acronyms & Calculators:

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight normally needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men) or 1000 cals for BF
If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful website or app to track food & drink caloriesi

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day. TDEE is calculated from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this over the week's NFDs.

To speed up your weight loss and to train yourself how to eat on maintenance,
optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight,
but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that to maintain our new healthy weight longterm requires a permanent change in how we eat.

How to Start

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator above as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

FAQs / Tips:

• WATER: Start each day with a pint of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, just count any milk / sugar calories on FDs.
• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice.

Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Many prefer to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs; optionally, reduce to 700 cals gradually. You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar and junk food. A few treats per week are good though!

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back exercise calories. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF. If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals

• Do NOT fast: if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, have past or present EDs, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads
Browse previous 5:2 threads in the fasting section

Tips and Links : breadandwine’s thread collects practical tips and info we have gained over all the 5:2 threads. It is especially useful for newbies.

Inspirational: eatriskier’s Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.
Read to boost your motivation.
Add your own when you have lost weight too

Recipes: frenchfancy has collected delicious FD recipes from all the threads.
Post your own here too.

Exercise: bigchocfrenzy has a Thread for advice & support on combining 5:2 with a healthy exercise regime.
The OP explains the science behind fasting, exercise & health and has many calculators.

Maintaining: talkinpeace has a Thread for those who have successfully lost weight on 5:2/IF and are now maintaining.
Some of those sharing experiences have been maintaining for 2 years, which shows 5:2 is sustainable longterm.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting
==================

BBC article on the Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

A science Study specifically addressed the effect of this diet on obese men & women, wrt health and weight loss:

"... After 8 weeks of treatment, participants had an average 12.5 lbs reduction in body weight and a 4cm decrease in waist circumference. Total fat mass declined by about 12 lbs while lean body mass remained relatively constant."
i.e. almost all the weight lost was fat, not muscle, which is unusually good for a diet.

It also describes improved blood values:
"Plasma adiponectin, a protein hormone that is elevated in obesity and associated with heart disease, dropped by 30%. As did LDL cholesterol (25%) and triglycerides (32%)."

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Some of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease
Also this ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLomgo , and a LongoInterview

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
This has created a wealth of very valuable practical knowledge to help us all.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

Not surprising you're upset, flugdrachen but it's a good thing they picked that up. (like your name BTW - I had to look it up to check that it meant what I thought it did. )

Morning,

I've done a mini FD yesterday at 650 cals (half of the cals were just hot drinks!) Still feeling crap, yesterday and this morning my cough had me nearly throwing up They do say it gets worse before it gets better, don't they? I just hope this is the worst of it!

I've weighed myself this morning as it was the only FD this week, and I've lost half a lb. Quite pleased with that as my weekend was very sugar heavy. I'm only 1lb away from my pre-preg weight I do want to lose another half a st after that though.

I don't remember who mentioned pancakes with bananas and nutella - they are in my head now, will def be making some over the weekend!

Flug I hope all is well with your DS, it's good they picked it up early if he does have it.

Right, I'm going to crawl back into bed. Good luck all!

Carbe thinking of you

So, I stayed within my 500 cals yesterday despite the bloating and feeling really fluey. We won't, however, discuss the types of food that made up the 500 cal.

Still can't track down the reason for the bloating. I'd had the tea before (twinnings cranberry and blood orange) and I don't put sweetener or anything in it.

Despite the bloating I was half a kg down this morning (I think, ancient scales that are hard to read, can't wait til I get proper ones out the boxes that still need unpacking).

I'm actually leaving the office to have lunch today instead of grabbing a sandwich at my desk, because I finally got paid (long irritating story). Shall have to balance the joy of treating myself with the need to stay a little bit sensible!

MrsSteven your losses are amazing - well done!

FD here today and about to throw a load of chicken and veg into the slow cooker for tonight's dinner. NO idea about the calorie content but I'll make sure my portion has minimal potatoes and I'm confident it'll be fine.

Carrotpuff sounds like you're doing well too!

Whoever mentioned asparagus and feta omelette above, thank you! That sounds delicious and will make a good addition to my FD meal options

EauRouge If you are not hungry, don't eat, no problem. You'll probably lose more quickly, so long as you are not forcing yourself below TDEE while still hungry.

I'd recommend you try to have at least 1200 cals, to ensure you have sufficient nutrients.
However, NEVER eat junk just to make up the calories
Many better choices: unsalted nuts, avocado, a piece of cheese, roasted veg drizzled in oil .....

Well done on your SV, MrsSteven
That's excellent progress over several weeks

Meerka To help with NFDs:

. Do you do 16:8 ? Reducing the eating window to 8 hrs can help.

. 3 meals daily eating what you want is over TDEE for most folk. So, I suggest you select one meal, say supper, where you relax . Then eat lightly at other meals.

. When eating with the family, if you pile extra veg on your plate, you'll be satisfied with less of the calorie-dense dishes.

. Only have seconds of veg, not of the starch or main

. A starter of green salad with Balsamico dressing also cuts down hunger for the main.

. If you have pud, have it after one meal only and make it a sensible portion, no seconds.

Congrats on your grading, Zalen

After this break, I suggest you weigh and measure yourself tomorrow, so you know your new starting point

congrats on the grading zalen :)

16:8 is a bit tricky, it just doesn't fit in with daily living and it was becoming a pressure so it's probably better to not try.

I will cut down on breakfast and lunch a bit and save the cals for main meal. I sometimes try to eat lightly on that and then find myself snacking on carrots and mandarins and suchlike late evening so maybe it's better to have a bigger main meal with lots of veg then try not to snack later. Healthy snacking, but still snacking.

Really am pleased at going down by 700g too; even if tomorrow is a bit heavier that doesn't matter, still managed to break through the standstill.

Again thanks for all the advice bigchoc and others

Can I ask what people do when they are on holiday? I have a week away coming up and I don't fancy fasting while the rest of my family are eating out!
I'm a bit worried that a week without my exercise routine will send me on the slippery slope back to couch potato but I will be doing a lot of walking on holiday so hopefully that will count!

I'm finding 16:8 a bit tricky these days too meerka. It was fine when I was eating with the DC at 5:30 or 6, but now I don't eat until after 8 during the week, which is making it a lot more difficult.

vvv Many of us old hands no longer have breakfast, just black coffee / tea.
So, this enables 16:8 longterm. Also saves time.

MrsWhiskers Holidays

For those still above goal weight, I suggest aiming for maintenance:

• No FDs, but 1-3 meals per day, no snacks in between
• 1 meal per day without restraint
• Eat lightly for any other meals

For those already at goal, 2 additional strategies:

• Before holidays, lose a few more lb to get to lower limit of happy range, to avoid exceeding it during holidays, or only by a small amount.
• Accept putting on a couple of lb per week, but right afterwards return to strict 5:2, to return to happy weight

mrswhiskers - IMO a holiday is a holiday, it's to be enjoyed! There's no reason why a week or two off your normal routine should turn you back into a couch potato, you just plan to start again when you get back. If you're going to do a lot of walking then you may be less sedentary than usual (depending what your usual is, of course).

Thanks errol and bigchoc
I don't normally put on weight on holiday so I'm hoping this one will be the same. I'm at goal weight but would like to lose another 2lbs for a bit of leeway so hopefully that will come off before the holiday.

Thanks bigchoc and Dotty ..good luck with your FD today, dinner sounds nice & healthy (and more importantly filling )

Well done Zalen on your grading, wouldn't want to pick an argument with you now ...enjoy your feast day today...

Flug my dd2 has just got her appointment to be tested for the same....it's in a few weeks time...she's had the symptom for nearly a year and after numerous trips to the doctors we have finally been referred....I'll just be happy to get her sorted (if it is coeliac) it's been a long road with her....hope everything turns out ok for you.

Mmmmmmmm yes that feta & asparagus omelette does sound good....and a lot better for a FD than my suggestion of a pancake with Nutella!!!

Right off for a hearty salad lunch (sorry fasters!!)
just after doing the shredd dvd and I could eat a small bus!!!!

Thanks very much, bigchoc, that's really helpful. I was only kidding about the cheesecake (I'm going to have to ban DH from buying it, I think), but I will happily eat any of the other things you've listed.

Today is going well, I don't feel hungry at all. I do feel really tired but I didn't get a very good night's sleep last night so that's probably why.

I had to eat my lunch a bit earlier than I'd hoped so I think I'll cook my dinner now while I'm not hungry.

Thanks everyone, I'm feeling very proud of myself, in amongst all the aches and pains of course.

Don't worry MrsSteven today is probably the best day to pick a quarrel with me, I couldn't fight my way out of a paper bag at the moment .

I think it was the fitness drill that did me in, three sets of tabata, burpees, then push-ups (ten second hold at the top of the push-up) and then squats (ten second hold at the bottom of the squat). All that followed for me and one other cycle belt candidate by what felt like half an hour (but was probably only 2-3 minutes) being attacked continuously with all the Krav stuff we've learned, by all the high grades in the class.

Feeling stressed here. 16:8 isn't working how I'd hoped it would. Some days I'm fine but others, like today, I am ravenous and end up eating far far too much (mainly biscuits )

I think I'm going to try 5:2 or maybe 4:3 instead and see how I feel on that. I don't know. Anyone have any advice for me? Here are some stats...

Height: 5 ft 0
Current weight: 205lbs / 93 kg
Current BMR: 1700
Current TDEE: 2000
TDEE at 1st goal weight: 1700

I'm also BF 6 month old DS. Should I be on 1000 cals for fast days? Or because I'm so short might 900 work better?

I'm so stressed with it all, I don't want to be fat forever :( when it goes well it really goes well but on days where I'm starving hungry I just can't control myself :(

Squiggle Biscuits are unhealthy calorie bombs, which raise your insulin level and just make you hungrier. Bad for your skin, too.

My suggestions

NO snacking - eat proper meals and:

• Start 5:2, with 1000 cal FDs and aim for goal TDEE most NFDs
• Concentrate on protein and veg every day. On NFDs, add fruit, oil and complex carbs, but your carb portion should be the size of a tennis ball
• Reduce the GI of your food, by swapping white carbs for complex, e.g. white bread for wholegrain, brown rice for white, quinoa instead of pasta.
• Restrict sweet "treats" and alcohol to 2 days per week
• When you are used to 5:2 either

gradually reduce the FDs to say 700 or start 4:3 or ADF (Alternate Day Fasting)

• Build up exercise, plenty of ideas and support on the 52ExerciseThread2

Thank you BigChoc. I think part of why it upsets me so much is that I had "issues" with eating as a teen and was actually underweight for a long while. In my head I still am that person. I can't handle the fact that actually I'm now huge and have been for far longer than I was thin :( its like my brain is scared to eat less in case I end up there again, does that make sense?

Hoping I can get used to 5:2. I'm so tired of failing.

Hi all, I'm on my 2nd FD and been using shakes instead of food as I would struggle to eat so little, would rather eat nothing.
When do u all find the best time to weigh in? My FD are Monday and Thursday and I had planned to weigh on a Monday morning but that would be after 3 full days of eating, should I weigh in after a FD or would that show an incorrect weight as I would have not eaten for days?

I'm wondering the same spintus I just started 5:2 last week and weighed on Friday morning (FD Tues and thurs) and had lost 2lbs but this week I'm 2lbs up again.
I think as long as you weigh at the same time/day it works itself out through time.

I eatclean healthy on NFD but out of curiosity I tried yo calculate my TDEE. However, I'm unsure how active to put myself? My job is not sedentary and I do go spinning 4 times a week and do body pump 1-2 times a week. In your opinion how active would you say this is so I can calculate my TDEE as accurately as possible?

Hi, Spintus I often just have 3 shakes on an FD too, plus veg juice & Bovril.

I suggest you and MrsWhiskers weigh after your 2nd FD of the week, to try to minimise the amount of undigested food in your total.
To be consistent, weigh naked, first thing in the morning, after your loo visit but before drinking anything. Keep the scales in exactly the same place when you weigh, because that can make a difference too.

I also recommend monitoring your waist & hips, as well, to get a clearer picture.

I'd choose 'moderately active.' For MFP purposes, though, I'd choose "lightly active" or "sedentary" if my goal was weigh loss. I try to underestimate exercise, overestimate calories.

hevs Calculate with "moderately active"
If you want to speed up weight loss, I recommend aiming for sedentary TDEE, i.e. not eating back exercise calories.