5:2 Thread number 51: Whoever said "nothing tastes as good as skinny feels" obviously never tasted ice cream or chocolate ! 5:2 is for those who enjoy good food and don't want to diet every damn day

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced on BBC Horizon on August 2012:
Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means somewhere around the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

For most folk, 5:2 results in a weekly 3,000 calorie deficit, so averages 1 lb loss. However, some folk may lose much more quickly / slowly, or in fits & starts.
Initial weight loss may be much quicker, especially if you have a lot of weight to lose.

When you are within a healthy BMI range and just want to trim a few more lb, progress may be much slower and you may need to monitor carefully that you don't average above TDEE on non-fast days.

Acronyms & Calculators:

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight normally needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men) or 1000 cals for BF
If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful website or app to track food & drink caloriesi

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day. TDEE is calculated from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this over the week's NFDs.

To speed up your weight loss and to train yourself how to eat on maintenance,
optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight,
but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that to maintain our new healthy weight longterm requires a permanent change in how we eat.

How to Start

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator above as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

FAQs / Tips:

• WATER: Start each day with a pint of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, just count any milk / sugar calories on FDs.
• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice.

Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Many prefer to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs; optionally, reduce to 700 cals gradually. You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar and junk food. A few treats per week are good though!

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back exercise calories. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF. If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals

• Do NOT fast: if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, have past or present EDs, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads
Browse previous 5:2 threads in the fasting section

Tips and Links : breadandwine’s thread collects practical tips and info we have gained over all the 5:2 threads. It is especially useful for newbies.

Inspirational: eatriskier’s Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.
Read to boost your motivation.
Add your own when you have lost weight too

Recipes: frenchfancy has collected delicious FD recipes from all the threads.
Post your own here too.

Exercise: bigchocfrenzy has a Thread for advice & support on combining 5:2 with a healthy exercise regime.
The OP explains the science behind fasting, exercise & health and has many calculators.

Maintaining: talkinpeace has a Thread for those who have successfully lost weight on 5:2/IF and are now maintaining.
Some of those sharing experiences have been maintaining for 2 years, which shows 5:2 is sustainable longterm.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting
==================

BBC article on the Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

A science Study specifically addressed the effect of this diet on obese men & women, wrt health and weight loss:

"... After 8 weeks of treatment, participants had an average 12.5 lbs reduction in body weight and a 4cm decrease in waist circumference. Total fat mass declined by about 12 lbs while lean body mass remained relatively constant."
i.e. almost all the weight lost was fat, not muscle, which is unusually good for a diet.

It also describes improved blood values:
"Plasma adiponectin, a protein hormone that is elevated in obesity and associated with heart disease, dropped by 30%. As did LDL cholesterol (25%) and triglycerides (32%)."

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Some of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease
Also this ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLomgo , and a LongoInterview

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
This has created a wealth of very valuable practical knowledge to help us all.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

AFAIK there won't be much scientific data yet on the effect of 5:2 either way on fertility. Anecdotally, these threads (and the Shred thread) seem to have people regularly dropping out because of pregnancy. While getting proper medical advice would be ideal, I doubt that this really can exist at this stage.

However, a few thoughts: If the periods returned to normal on stopping 5:2, then maybe a plan would be to get to a healthy weight now (if you were over), as it's better not to be overweight when you're pregnant, and then maintain. But obviously you don't want to be underweight either, that's likely to be worse. Another is to check that you're not going overboard with '5:2' - eg not fasting on 2 days and also calorie restricting way below TDEE on others.

Welcome, Stripey

Losing excess weight can often improve fertility and problems like PCOS. The 5:2 stork often visits these threads

Fertility and periods can be affected simply by weight loss, regardless of the WOE:

. Some folk lose too quickly for their particular body, so their system needs time to recover and get used to the lower weight.
This is one reason why forcing a very high weekly deficit to lose quickly is a bad idea.

. Some women aim for a target that is too low in body fat for fertility, e.g. sub-20 BMI may be chic, but not ideal when ttc.

. Some women may find fertility reduces in ketosis, which may also happen with low carb. These women would be better spreading out their 500 cals, or even doing 700-1000 cal FDs, like BFers do.

Well done on your SVs, Errol, igivein
You are at opposite ends of the spectrum, hence very different rates of loss. but you are both patient and doing so well:

Errol low TDEE and nearly at goal. So a slow process.
igivein still a few stone to go. But it's lifechanging and you'll do this !

Well done on your NSV, Donkeys Good start

Morning everyone :) HippyJess here wearing my new username! So good to see everyone doing so well, especially since I've only managed 15:9 today and yesterday... Need to get back in the zone! Would've been fine today but missed the bus to our planned activity so home again. Being at home with a napping baby is my nemesis!

My 'goal weight' is somewhat nominal anyway - it's more that I've fat I want to lose. If I gain some muscle (have started using some heavier weights again) then I would be OK with current weight.

Just received Dr MM books the fast diet and fast exercise so will read those over the weekend. Also ordered the fast recipe book but I'm going to send it back as it seems to be very meat and cheese based neither of which I eat and tbh I think I'll be quite happy with soups and lentil dhal on fast days and have a rest from preparing meals!

Hi Stripy

Just came in to say that I was one of the few of is that Errol referred to who have dropped off the threads because if pregnancy. DD2 is here now so I'm back on!! Of course lots of anecdotes don't equal data (!) but if it helps you to know about me I was about a stone overweight when started 5:2 and conceived when I'd lost a few pounds. So certainly not starved!!!

Well done all fasters - just black coffee for me today so far so feeling virtuous.

Hi Squigglehead, bye Hippy

Thanks for all the replies.

My BMI is only just in the overweight category at 25.4. I would like to lose about a stone to get back to where I was two summers ago. Too many biscuits and chocolate bars have happened since.

Of course a change in periods doesn't automatically mean a negative effect on fertility. I imagine my GP wouldn't really know enough about fasting and its effects on fertility to be able to advice.

I think I will give fasting a go ago and see, it certainly worked well last time, I lost a pound a week at least.

Mildly
Not sure where B&W is, but his various bread recipes are here
nobreadisanisland.blogspot.co.uk/2011/01/hot-cross-buns-spicy-fruit-buns.html

stripy
I'm another of the post childbearing ones, but the numbers of conceptions on the threads is interesting.
It may be less to do with the fasting than to do with starting to eat well and exercise kicking the body into the right mode.

FWIW intermittent fasting is only dropping your calorie intake down to a healthy level and bods like me who never ate breakfast managed to produce kids while only eating in an 8 hour window each day just much too much

For many of us who are post-meno, or going through meno, IF is an effective means of body fat control, when previous methods no longer work.
I refer to body fat, because that is a more exact description of my aim.
Many of us older ones maintaining continue IF, mainly because we think it may help us stay healthier in later years.

Sorry to gate crash but I need some advise ..

My first fast today today has gone suprisingly well considering it's the first one. I have drank water all day and I've yet to eat anything although my tea is in the oven as we speak (salmon with plenty of veg). I've even managed my spin class and my ab challenges.

When would you recommend weighing in day? Should I do it after a fast day or away from a fast day all together? My usual weigh is Wednesday but I plan to fast on Tuesdays and Friday's. Could weighing In after a fast give me an inacurate reading? Thanks

Hi there hevs
Weighing in is best done as rarely as you can stand.
I aim for once a week but was disorganised today.
Use your clothes as your guide ...
but the ideal is at the end of your second fast of the week as then you are weighing the real you rather than undigested food

Welcome, Hevs Well done on your 1st FD

Post anytime, this is a very friendly thread

I recommend measuring waist & hips and monitoring these, as an indicator of change in % body fat, in addition to any weighing schedule you choose.

Just waving to all in a weekend hello. I know that this thread goes a bit quiet at weekends but wanted to say good luck to anyone fasting on a Sat. Fri was a NFD for me but managed to stick to a no carb breakfast and v lo carb lunch with a minor blow out (curry and rice) for supper so I think it was only 200 or so above TDEE.

Morning all, hope everyone is enjoying their weekend.

Feeling inspired this morning due to my fat jeans feeling a bit loose as I walked the dog this AM and noticing that my muffin/love handles looked a bit smaller - I've just done all of my measurements again since 3rd of March when I first took them.

I was very surprised :)
So with almost half a stone off I've also shrunk a total of roughly 30cms combined
Most notably, 8 whole cms from the area I call my mummy tummy (below the navel)

6cms from the smallest point of my waist.(both areas have a lot to do with strengthening my transverse abs as I have a diastasis recti so as it's getting stronger it's naturally pulling me in)
5cms off my hips and 4cms off the fullest part of my bum, 2cms from under my boobs but nothing off the fullest part - I rarely lose boobage though so not surprising.
I've also had shrinkage in both thighs (R-3 cms and L-3.5cms) and biceps too. I'm soooo keeping this going :)

Guys - whoever isn't yet measuring then go dig a tape measure out, grab a pen and paper and get it done today. It really gives you a big kick up the arse when you feel nothing much is happening.

Morning all,

Jeez this thread moves fast, and it was only yterday morn I was on!

Hi and welcome to all new fasters, well done on first FDs, you'll never look back once you start!

igiven as always I love reading your updates, and wow 2 and a half stone in 11 weeks is excellent, your my inspiration

Carbe Well done on your weight loss and inch loss, I really must get myself a tape measure and keep a record, I did notice my own jeans are a bit loose at the waist this morning, although still a tad tight at the legs (more running required I think!!) and great to know if I'm ever on a weekend break in Poland what treat to look out for

Well done everyone else on their losses too, every 2nd post was someone saying they had lost inchs/lbs....which is really good to read...keeps me going too NFD yterday was fine, like you Handmini I went over TDEE by maybe 100 or so cals (mum called with more yummy home baking) so it was nice to have a cuppa and a nice chat over tea and a bun...but i did run over 6k with the running group last night!

Have a nice weekend everyone

Carbe I really must get into the measuring thing -particularly waist (that's my body "issue" as it were... Well, that and trying to bulk up the arms a tad).
Down to 11st 9, so that's two pounds this last week /ten days (my weigh ins are a bit random!).
Think clothing (comfort of those 501s - yes, I am a man of a certain generation) and confidence to wear "fitted" tees is more my guide at the moment - I'm feeling more comfortable, so the weight is just a nice confirmation at the moment.
From a male body image perspective, I'm currently at a stage where chest is going the right way, but can no longer wear loose tees as they hang at an angle of the chest which gives a paunch look that ain't there anymore!
Good to read a lot of you (like I) seem to save your FD cals for dinner - was worrying I was doing something counter-productive.

MrsSteven Thanks! Yes to measuring - just keep the same conditions every time - mine are usually after TOTM when my body isn't flooded with evil lbs/water holding hormones, same time of day before I've eaten anything and after I've been to the loo :) :)
Oh I can personally recommend more goodies in Poland than the almond/marzipan croissant (there should be a piggy emoji thingy for me to use here)

Minus - Do it! then check once a month. Well done on the loss.
Ahh 501's - the old kind though before they started messing with them and doing twisted legs and stuff. I used to love mine and wore them until they literally fell off me :) It's hard to find a good pair of jeans :) Yes to the loose T's - We ladies can sympathise and have this problem sometimes too. I don't like them as the boobs act as a coat hanger and the material just flaps over the waist/abdomen area - largely unflattering.
I'm a vest gal - I live in them, just throw a shirt or hoody over the top when it's cold.

carbe that measurement loss is amazing! Very nice going =) big encouragement isn't it!

am going to try to fit a session at the gym in before my wonderful in laws return the children. Wasn't woken up by the 10 month old last night .. but by the husband snoring. ARG. Is murder-by-reason-of-snoring permissible as a defense?

Thanks Meerka Yes it's a big encouragement.
Oh that really sucks - Boo Meerka's Dh! - I can be your alibi if you like if he ever does it again :)

Carbe 30 com is brilliant; that must totally change your shape and improve health markers. Just look at 30 cm on the tape and see how far you have come.
As well as the exercise pulling in your tum, you have lost a good amount of fat and have probably added muscle too.
So you've improved your body composition significantly within that 7lb SV.

< waves to Handmini >
Are you fasting today ? I'm fasting tomorrow - I always fast either Sat or Sun, to limit the weekend frenzy. One of my mottos:
Know your weaknesses and develop strategies to limit them

Minus That's excellent if you can wear fitted tees now. If you can regularly do short sets of heavyish weights, you'll develop the classic V-shape that looks great for men.