IF / ADF / 4:3 / 5:2 / 6:1 / 16:8 ~ Maintaining at a healthy weight ~ Chapter 5

[TalkinPeace]

This thread is for those of us who have been practicing IF (Intermittent Fasting) for quite a while ( it being nearly 2 years since the Michael Mosely TV programme aired ) and are now at, or nearing, their target healthy weight.
It's also for anyone who is doing it for the health benefits alone.

How do we mix fasts and a stable food intake while having little or no weight to lose?
How do we ensure that this WOL keeps us at the healthy weight long term rather than revert to yoyo games?
How do we ensure that we keep ourselves looking great rather than just thin?

More and more of us have been maintaining at our original goal weight for many months, and others are joining all the time.
Obviously, the more the merrier!
It is also worth considering whether a second, leaner target might be achievable.

You'll find the first four maintenance threads and all the main 5:2 threads for posters practising IF to lose weight here Fasting / 5:2 on the diet forum. We're currently on thread no. 46, but there is a new main thread every 2-3 weeks.

There are three other associated threads:
This one, which is an absolute goldmine of Tips and Links on how to practice IF, and the research behind it.

And here is a treasure trove of 5:2 recipes, mostly low calorie for fasting days, but there are also recipes for when you want to treat yourself. And, now we're maintaining, we'll need more of these!

Since I started the last Maintainers thread the importance of exercise has come even more to the fore, as part of our general health and to help weight loss. BigChocFrenzys thread is here

Filly. Just seen you have Vacherin. You lucky sod .

Some anti-fasting news today..
scienceblog.com/78477/study-skipping-meals-linked-abdominal-weight-gain/#yJup54gbJWJBUY8S.97

Anglaise. It seems to be based on gorging in between fasting rather than fasting and eating normally.

I'm still thinking about Fillybusters Vacherin. I'd like to gorge on that.

The study isn't examining IF as we know it at all, just a form of daily starvation.
If I wished to design a propoganda study against IF, that's how I'd do it.

The mice were first put on daily 50% TDEE for a prolonged period to lose weight, i.e. extreme daily calorie restriction. That is what is important imo, not that the calories were all in 1 meal. Not surprising that they learned gorging behaviour, which continued.

In complete contrast, Intermittent fasting is only 1 day at a time, then a normal feed day. Totally different and not preceeded by prolonged daily semi-starvation.

The Minnesota experiment on human test subjects during WW2 already found that prolonged extreme daily starvation, to lose a lot of weight, made the men binge like mad afterwards and end up heavier than they started.
This is one reason why the VLC 700-800 8-week diet for T2 diabetes needs to be medically supervised, to ensure subjects ease into normal eating behaviour afterwards.

btw, the Warrior diet is 1 meal per day, but with unrestricted calories. Some male weightlifters have done very well on it and those guys are very particular about %bodyfat - I think their huge TDEE means they can't overeat in a single meal like a woman with 1500 TDEE could. I suspect a small woman with a tendency to EDs could put on weight with the WD.

Don't suppose any of you guys were listening to Test Match special today!

But, if you were you'd have heard Henry Blofeld, one of the commentators, talking about 5:2. Apparently he's lost a stone in 6 weeks.

When he was quizzed about the 5:2, Henry responded that he ate what he liked on 5 days a week, and ate nothing at all on the other two. He's still got some way to go, but says he finds it very easy.

Michael Vaughan quipped that he thought the 5:2 diet meant that you ate at five to - every hour!

Sorry B&W didn't listen to the cricket.
another person for whom it has worked.

Bigchoc. That Warrior diet you describe. If I did that with a BMR of 1450 and TDEE of approx 1750, I could easily exceed that in one sitting if I gorged. A large meal followed by some cheese etc and I'd be well over.

However if I worked out a lot, it could well work for me.

I'm trying to eat more veg at the moment. I've been eating too many biscuits lately and not enough green stuff.
I've noticed that eating a lot of carb makes me super tired. And not just the biscuit bad kind but also high carb actual food such as brown bread and brown rice. Interesting.

Next week will be hard as its half term. Very hard to be good when surrounded my small children wanting to eat every five minutes and wanting treats because they're on holiday. Bracing myself.....

B&W I used to listen To Test Match Special, nearly 30 years ago. Good to hear Blofers is still going strong I assumed he was dead by now and excellent to know such a nice chap is a fellow 5:2er

MrsF I thought treats were once every couple of months (old bag coming from the time when Scrooge walked the land)
I have confidence you will find non-food alternatives without strangling any small persons. Valium (for you) is your mother's help.

Bigchoc. If only the GP would hand over some Valium!! You can't get anything decent or helpful from them these days.

On the plus side I've stayed away from the biscuits today and this after a 5am start after broken sleep (woken by earth quake here in Kent - I was hitting DH because I thought it was his snoring but is was the window rattling!).

I have had dinner already and fruit for afters (with creme fraiche ). Am so very tired and want the lovely small people to go to bed but I promised them they could stay up till 8tonight (bribe from earlier this week).

I've seen enough documentaries and articles about the Minnesota experiment to know that it has no value.

One of the really important parts about controlled fasting is the neural feedback about I can have it tomorrow

Those poor lads were forced into the basement of a football stadium with no understanding, control or positive outcomes
hence their cortisol rocketed
hence their systems shut down
hence they did not burn calories

which bears no relation to controlled and positive fasting

the same applies to any animal experiment ....
try telling my cats that fasting is for their own good

The Minnesota experiment was nothing to do with IF:
it merely showed that after prolonged and extreme daily starvation, most people will binge and their health may be affected.
The number of meals during starvation is irrelevant; only the total calories and the very low protein mattered.

IF is not daily restriction and the weekly calorie deficit is never extreme

The Minnesota volunteers were insanely STARVED for 24 weeks on daily calorie restriction of sub-50% TDEE, consisting only of low value carbs.
They all started at a healthy weight, but lost 25 % of this on average, so became seriously underweight and malnourished, especially lacking protein. They naturally binged uncontrollably afterwards and gained more weight than they lost.

The rats were subject to a Minnesota-type prolonged starvation which completely invalidated the IF part of the study. If they had combined Minnesota with the equivalent to WeightWatchere, the effect would have been the same. Real starvation overwhelms any other effects.

You may gather I'm very angry that scientists could be so stupid and cruel.

The scientists who did that study had very valid reasons : the of the time papers are really interesting and valid
but have been misrepresented since

one of the progs I saw had interviews with ethe lads : they were debriefed after a year ... they were cool

I regard the experiment as highly unethical, regardless of their motives. The scientists' failure in their duty of care amounted to cruelty.
I admit to being prejudiced that Ancel Keys was the chief scientist involved: the damage his low fat dogma caused has lasted for decades and was based on dishonest science, cherry-picking his 7 countries data.
In both cases, I judge him as a scientist and consider his ethics to be atrocious.

Like you'd professionally judge a dodgy tax accountant.

Dodgy science really upsets you Bigchoc!

I avoided the biscuits but hit the choc instead. Oh dear. Must do better...

Just keep Lindt Mild Excellence 90% cocoa in the house: It's packed with antioxidants, has very little sugar and is surprisingly satisfying - you are unlikely to eat more than 30g in your worst binge

Hi all

Posted on the main thread yesterday about maintaining. I'm just wondering what is your advice on maintaining? Do you still fast and how often? What kind of fasting do you do?

Any advice appreciated

Hi Hevs. Welcome

I think most fast at least a day a week. Saying that I've been bad and didn't fast at all for about 5 months this year - I was telling myself it was an experiment..... Well result is that I gained about 5lbs eating like a pig. And I do mean like a pig. So back to two FDs per week now. And once the extra 5lbs are gone I will stick with a fast one day per week.

Bigchoc. I do have dark choc for this reason. Sadly I also had some milk choc and the milk choc won!

Feel free to ask any questions you like Hevs.

Delighted to have you join us, hevs!

Pretty much we all maintain differently, I reckon. I have a complete 24 hour (LOF) fast once a week. I simply pick a day when I've finished dinner early (I aim for 6pm but rarely make it), and begin the fast when I've finished the last bite.

During the week, I often have a late supper - in which case, since I don't have breakfast much these days, I'll miss out the lunch - rationalising that "I had my lunch last night!". So that's a sort of 16:8.

Having the ability to skip meals certainly makes my life easier. If I'm travelling, for instance, I just don't worry about eating - in fact, from being uptight and ratty if a meal was late (pre-5:2), I'm now quite zen-like when it comes to food.

A few weeks ago I was teaching all day, and didn't get back until after 8 - no problem, I just had a lovely big meal when I got home.

All the best with it, you'll soon find your own method.

Welcome, hevs
Some of us do daily 16:8 and eat within TDEE; most have 1 or 2 FDs per week. My FDs in maintenance are more relaxed at 700 cals, but some keep to 500.
Just decide what is sustainable longterm for your lifestyle.

Only rule: don't revert to your previous lifestyle, or you'll revert to your previous weight

I do advise weighing weekly though: on any WOE, a woman who is peri / post-meno can suddenly find weight piles on, without any change to intake or exercise.
So, deal promptly with any gain of 4 lb+ before it becomes a mountain to climb

Studies of BMI & Health Risks
I prefer waist: height rather than BMI, but I dug these out in answer to another thread:

Good graphs show risk of all-course death wrt BMI:

All-cause risk of premature death: BMI 30-35 44% higher , NatInstH
T2Diabetes risk: DMS ,
DiabUK , UKgov
Overweight kids: Risks

Well, I think I am going to gravitate over here - I feel a bit of a fraud over on the main thread as I've reached the stage where I need to focus less on my weight and more on exercise and re-acquaint myself with my waist which I know is in there somewhere.

Am finding two FDs a week difficult, although Thursday's FD may be more of a mental block, so may re-think about not eating quite so late (have evening class so don't usually eat anything until 10 - 10.30 p.m. and my concentration has been wandering lately).

On the other hand my TDEE has dropped to around 1250 calories which I'm finding difficult to stick to - it seems too much like a calorie controlled diet with no spare calories for treats if I eat healthily; for example, I had a salmon sandwich after a short run today which is 340 calories. That leaves 800 calories for the rest of the day. Going to have to find something low calorie to fill me up - I have a decent blender which makes good smoothie type drinks, but even then a mixed veg smoothie with a piece of fruit will probably come in at 150 cals.

If I stick to two FDs, then on NFDs can I share the 750 deficit calories of the second FD between the remaining 5 days? Either add 150 calories to each TDEE or mix and match? On the other hand, Friday, Saturday and Sunday I usually get through a bottle of wine, so perhaps I can use my Thursday FD deficit to cover my wine?

Does that sound reasonable? FD - Monday & Thursday; TDEE Tuesday & Wednesday; Friday, Saturday Sunday TDEE plus couple small glasses of wine.

Apologies for the long post - just trying to sort things out in my mind and if I put things down in writing I'm more likely to stick to it.

Welcome, Granny

How did you calculate your TDEE to be 1250 ? It seem very low.
For maintenance, you can set your correct activity level, rather than the strict sedentary for losing.

Your maintenance weekly cals should be about 7 x TDEE. So, you can eat back any deficit from the 2 FDs, spread out over as many NFDs as you wish.
It is the weekly total that matters mostly.

If you wish to reduce waist, try to restrict added sugar and alcohol to 1 portion on 1-2 days per week, because these foods specifically tend to fat storage around the middle.
Also try to choose complex starches rather than simple ones.
And keep fruit to within 2 portions daily, preferably lower GI.

I recommend weekly monitoring of weight and waist, so you can review progress and tweak if necessary.

set it at sedentary - no wonder I found last week so tough! I'd like to lose a little bit more weight, but will be happy with half a kilo a month. Light activity has me at 1460, so I will replan accordingly, eat at 7 x TDEE but not eat back exercise calories. Can live without the added sugar, not sure about wine .... . And now I believe I have a date with a banana. Simple pleasures restored.