5:2 Exercise & Fitness Thread Number 2: Advice and information for those following 5:2 / IF (Intermittent Fasting)

[BigChocFrenzy]

Why Exercise ?

Maintaining a normal bodyweight and taking regular exercise are 2 major areas of life which we can address to improve our health.

Regular exercise helps reduce the risk of obesity, type 2 diabetes, heart disease, high blood pressure, some cancers, osteoporosis, dementia, depression.

Increasing your % muscle and / or reducing your % body fat lowers the risk of death from all causes LowerRiskMuscle

Regular exercisers gain the greatest benefits over their lifetime and theyj can minimise biological aging, i.e. "Bend the Aging Curve BendAge

Fasted training

i.e. training on FDs, seems to increase the benefits of both training and IF.
Most experienced exercisers soon manage fasted training without loss of performance for session of up to 90 mins.

Hormesis

"What doesn't kill you makes you stronger"
Hormesis Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis is cutting edge science for nutrition and fitness.

Its principles are that alternating between "extremes" of feast and fast (5:2 / IF) or intense training and rest (HIIT), makes the body more resilient.

The intermittent stress of lifting an extreme weight or performing at high speed for a short period pushes the body to overcompensate and prepare for an even greater future challenge HormesisTrain , Hormesis-Edge , and AntiFragile The following recovery period avoids damage from over-stressing.

INEFFICIENT: Low-Medium Intensity Steady state Cardio

Steady state cardio is NOT necessary for fitness and should only be a small part of your weekly cardio, unless it is all you can manage to do.

Walking outdoors is beneficial psychologically, is easy on the knee joints and has some physical benefits.

However, at speeds of 5mph or faster, running will burn more calories per mile than walking Ref

Also low-moderate or steady state exercise tends to increase appetite, whereas intense exercise can suppress appetite for up to 15 hours.

BEST TYPES of Exercise

HIIT cardio and resistance training / weight lifting are recommended to boost the effect of 5:2/IF, to increase weight loss, reduce body fat, retain muscle and maintain TDEE / BMR.

Anyone who is not specialising in a sport at a high level should aim to do both HIIT cardio and lifting / resistance training.

FAST Exercise

Dr Mosely developed a Fast Exercise program to complement his 5:2 WOE FastExercise

He lists many HIIT and strength routines that only take a few minutes, but can make significantly improve metabolism and fat-burning capability FastExercises

HOW to Exercise

The cardio machines and the girlie pink dumbbells that gyms push are NOT adequate to significantly improve fitness or burn fat.

Whether you join a gym or train at home or in the park:

• Train as intensively as your time, health and fitness level allow.
• Do not remain in your comfort zone, or you will not improve.
• You are supposed to drip sweat and pant heavily !

However, a brisk 30 mins daily walk plus 5 mins hoop is better than nothing and if done regularly will bring some health benefits.

HIIT (High Intensity Interval Training)

HIIT is an exercise strategy which alternates brief intervals of high intensity exercise with less-intense recovery periods.
Examples:

• 20 seconds high intensity + 10 secs recovery
• 60 sec high + 30 sec low etc.

HIIT is very time-efficient, producing the greatest fitness benefit in the least time (the advantage of hormesis).

Scientists have proved that HIIT burns more fat than steady state lower intensity exercise and speeds up the metabolism, which helps burn more calories for up to 48 hrs.

HIIT also improves the insulin metabolism, which is very important for health.

HIIT reduces risk of heart problems more than doing lower intensity SteadyState , pp. 31-34.

HIIT increases both aerobic and anaerobic endurance

HIIT can be applied to cardio: e.g. cycling, running, skipping, jumping, mountain climbs or to bodyweight exercises, e.g. squatting, situps, burpees, pressups

Most gyms offer HIIT classes, e.g. spinning, circuit training, CrossFit, Tabata, Fartlek*(Fartlek = HIIT with irregular intervals)

RESISTANCE Training / LIFTING

Helps retain muscle mass during weight loss and hence to maintain TDEE.
You can lift at home, or in the gym weights area, or in a pump class.

It is best not to train the same muscle groups 2 days in succession, so have rest days, or cardio, or train different muscle groups on different days.
Try to build up to weight training for 30-60 mins twice per week.

Reps = the number of repetitions in a set of a particular lifting exercise
Sets are normally separated by brief rests E.g. you might do 3 sets each of 12 reps all of the same exercise.

WARNING
Do not lift massively heavy barbells, more than bodyweight, unless you are really fit with good technique.
Women who have given birth and / or are aged 40+ have a higher risk of pelvic floor / prolapse injuries when lifting heavy than young non-mums.

Press ups

• By far the best upper body exercise
• Keep attempting one full pressup rather than doing several dozen girlie ones with your knees on the floor.
• Once you can do one pressup, you will soon be able to build up to 5, then 10 etc.
• Tip: keep the abs rigid, so strong abs are as important as strong shoulders & arms
• Hand Release Pressups are good to build up strength for full ones
• Also build up via inclined pressups InclinedPress , see bottom of wiki page
• To increase the number of pushups IncreaseNum

ATG Arse To Grass bodyweight squat

• The best exercise for the large muscle group in bum and thighs.
• Basic principle: It is like having a pee on a public loo - get your bum down low and pointing to the rear, but not actually touching the seat.

-Lean back on your heels, so that weight is on them, not on your toes. -bring your arms forward

• keep your back straight, but angled slightly forward, not vertical.
• Go down as far as you can without knee pain.

Pullups

• Very few women can do full ones, but assisted ones build excellent muscle
• Work the same muscles with the much easier Australian pullup or imverted row InvertedRow

If you have access to dumbbells / barbells, then for maximum effect, work the large muscle groups:
squats bent-over rows (press button "female") Behind neckPress (press button "female") dead lift

To increase Strength Rather than Muscle Mass
Lift as heavy as you can, low reps, with 1 minute rest between sets e.g. 5 sets x 5 reps each, i.e. totalling 25 lifts.

To Build More Muscle
Lift lower (NOT Girlie) weight, do 3 sets x 8-20 reps, i.e. totalling 24-60 lifts.

AVOID OSTEOPOROSIS

To retain bone strength and avoid a painfully disabled old age, start now:
Ideally weight-bearing exercises that load the bone along its length of these types:

Impact exercise E.g. walking, running, jumping, skipping rope, step class, hitting a heavy punch bag.

Lifting: squats, press-ups, bench press, overhead press etc.

Squats are much better for osteoporosis than lunges, also for knees:
The weight in a squat is transmitted down along the spine, through the hip, and down along the bones of the leg, whereas in a lunge, it is transmitted across the shinbone and puts pressure on the knee joint.

Note: Cycling normally does NOT increase bone density, as it does not load bones along their length. Osteo

KETTLEBELLS Kettle
Beginners:
. Two-handed swing
. Sumo Deadlift
. Turkish Getup
. Swing
. Clean and Jerk
. Press

Improve your GRIP STRENGTH GripMen , BodyBuild

CALCULATORS:
Fast Fitness Calculators: 52FastExercise
Estimate your fitness age: FitAge
Estimate Vo2Max iTunes App: Vo2APP
Body Fat Calculator:BF
Healthy Body Fat Percentages at Different Ages: HealthyBF
TDEE with detailed activity times: TDEE

Baloo You already lift very heavy. No need to increase weights. In fact, best not to, in case you injure your pelvic floor or knees.

NOONE give up weight training though !
It has a high "afterburn":
you burn more calories over the next 24 hours, so it burns more calories than just during the lifting session itself.
Muscle also has less volume and burns more calories than the same weight of fat.

Lifting is healthy: it improves bone density, which helps avoid osteoporosis in later life. Cardio does not do this.
High % muscle is as important for health & longevity as low body fat.

Also, it is not good just to do cardio, so lifting is another calorie-burning activiity.

Betsy I know you don't want to, but your hip needs a week off, just walking, to avoid worsening the problem. You shouldn't need to ice regularly.
To stop you getting bored during this, work your upper body more: punching, pressups, lifting, plank etc.

After the break, try this warmup / cooldown:
. 30 secs gentle jogging
. 5 x bodyweight squats (not too deep)
. 5 x forward leg swings each leg (optionally hold onto a pole or wall)
. 5 x side leg swings each leg (swing your leg outwards, then swing it back to cross in front of the other leg, optionally hold onto something)
. 5 x hip rotations each leg (raise your knee, rotate out to the side, then back in front)
. 5 x forward lunges for each leg
. 30 secs gentle jogging.

bcf I just wrote a long post full of "well I'll stop just this and this for a bit", read it back and thought how ridiculous I sounded. The pain is low level but not going away so I need to stop and rest, thank you for just saying it.

Gosh this is going to hard but I know you are right. It's been niggling for a while and getting worse with more running and extra tkd.

Hi all

Thank you for this thread, I'm into week 3 of 4:3 and liking it so far, just wondering if you have any advice?

I really want to pick up more (ie 'any') strength training- I currently do 7-9 hours of spin a week so have the cardio covered, and I've been managing to continue on my FD's which is great. But having dropped Bodypump classes recently due to the class times changing I'm doing nothing in the way of resistance. Tbh I don't think one session of Bodypump a week was doing much for me anyway, I still feel as week as an anaemic kitten

Ideally I'd like to strengthen up and tone without having to use the gym- I really don't enjoy it. Would it be worth getting a kettle bell (s) do you think? Or starting some kind of resistance routine at home?

I have done the Shred a few times now but I'm looking for something a bit different now I think.

Any ideas? Thanks in advance

Welcome, SirNoel We are honoured to have the aristocracy visit.

Excellent that you want to do strength training: that improves health factors and body shape.
Your body pump was probably gym girlie weights, whereas to make a real difference it is better to lift heavier, but not insane.

You can do this at home, no problem, using bodyweight. Some dumbbells would be useful, but not essential.

Do at least one of Dr Mosely's Fast Strength routines per week, see the last section of my post on Sat 28-Jun-14 21:42

For your main strength routine, split these exercises as you wish over the week:

Upper body
. Big Girl pressups (i.e. full ones) if you can, or see the OP how to work up to these with inclined pressups on a step or wall and XFit pressups.
The aim is to keep your body in a straight line, with abs rigid.
Little girlie pressups, with knees on the floor, are not much use
Start with 3 sets of 5, whatever pressups you can do and work up to 3 sets of 10 Big Girls.
. Tricep dips on a step. The lower the step, the tougher it is. Also tougher is keeping your legs fairly straight, instead of bent at the knees.
Again, start with 3 sets of 5, but work up to 3 sets of 20
. Standing shoulder press . If you have access to dumbells. Work up to 3 sets of 8. When you can do these, increase the weight, not the reps or sets.
. Bentover Row . Again with dumbells, 3 sets of 8.

Legs and bum (bodyweight)
. Deep squats, as low as possible without hurting knees. Work up to 3 sets of 10.
. Forward lunges, but only if your knees are ok. Don't go any deeper than is ok for your knees.
Work up to 2 sets of 12 each side.

Abs:
. The plank If you don't do this yet, start at 2 x 15 secs. Work up to 2x 45 secs
. Leg raise Lie flat on your back, with bent legs. Lower your legs one at a time to 1" above the floor (straighten leg if you can) then raise again. Start at 3 sets of 3 each leg. Build up to 3 sets of 15.
. . Situps, hands forward, without any abs gadgets This ensures you really work your muscles. Also start at 3 sets of 3 and build up.

Big Choc you are a star thank you!

Funnily enough, I'd already C&P'ed the post you mentioned into a document for reference, I'm going to add this one, print them all off and start my routines on Thursday (Weds is my rest day)

I do have some slightly pathetic dumbells that I can start with, I will report back with my progress soon!

Thank you again, much appreciated

On my 58th birthday yesterday, the outdoor Xgit class comsisted of me and several muscular young hunks (as Betsy wished for me !)

XFit, although Xgit may be better !

What are everyone's thoughts of exercise classes? Is there a separate thread anywhere specifically about exercise?
In my 20s I used to go to a lot of group classes but as I gained more and more weight with each of my 3 kids my self esteem got so low and I was always so embarrassed to go to them, but I think I may just suck it up and start going again. I don't hate going to the gym, but I do sometimes find it a bit dull. Does anyone here opt for exercise classes rather than the traditional cardio machines?
I would spend 30 minutes after the class doing some strength training also :)

I love your birthday report Weeping hunks beaten by awesome, 58-years-young, fabulous bigchoc: you are truly an inspiration.

Only a couple more days till I can get going again. I've had a very lazy week

Hi Horlix This thread is for all kinds of exercise:
home, gym, classes, weights room, running, tough mudder, clubs, shred .....

If you have access to a gym, ask about these classes:
. Spin, especially HIIT
. any martial arts, e.g. Body Combat, TaeKwanDo, TaeBo, box fitness
. CrossFit or any HIIT circuit training
. Body Pump

Ask a gym trainer to give you a program with tough classes, plus additional strength training on your own

Each week, you need:
. HIIT, for fat-burning and
. Strength training to retain or build muscle

Any regular exercise is better than none, but intense workouts of maximum 60-90 mins are more effective than longer sessions at lower intensity.
You need to sweat and be panting heavily most of the time.

Post here and tell us about your progress, or ask advice.

cuppa finding a class you really enjoy can be a great prompt to get exercising regularly. Joining a martial arts class has been one of the most exciting things that's ever happened to me, though I realise that the club I'm in is pretty unusual in its awesomeness, and with it I've found a great group of women to do other fitness stuff too. Try things out and see what is most enjoyable. If it's not fun then it's harder to stick to unless you've got bags of self motivation.

If you like running then apps like run keeper are pretty good for spurring you on with stats. If you'd like to get running there are a plethora of couch to 5k apps which are very good as they start you off which small, achievable targets and build you up slowly but effectively.

Thanks, Betsy

How is your injury now, any remaining soreness ?
You must be stir-crazy, but you may find you have more energy when you return after a rest.
Remember to do warmups and cooldowns suitable for your vigorous TK movements, e.g. my suggestion from Monday.

You'll soon be smashing plates again and on the way to your next belt. Do let us know how you feel afterwards.

Horlix If gym was dull, they didn't give you the right program. You should look forward to training and see progress.

Too many women have long boring low intensity sessions on cardio machines, which do very little for their fitness.
Their bodies soon adapt and burn far fewer calories than the machine claims.
Machines can be useful if you can't run outside for very short bursts of HIIT, see Mosely's Fast Fitness blasts I posted Sat 28-Jun-14 21:42.

Similarly, too many able-bodied women waste hours on light girlie dumbbells, when they should doing full press-ups, deep squats, lifting heavy weights.

No soreness while not being used, the test will be on Monday when I have advanced tkd class - that's when the hip twisting kicks come out! And yes I will definitely be doing the extra warm ups/cool downs you gave me. I did go to class yesterday but avoided leg stuff and my instructor gave me some excellent hand drills to do instead, which felt fantastic. I do love punching!

But aside from that I've not done anything - I've had lots of real life stuff to get on with so caught up on all that rather than avoiding it all with lovely training and not at all binged on Netflix serials

The week off has felt like the right thing but I'm looking forward to getting back into it. My eating has been crap this week (eating more when not hungry and at stupid times, rather than junk), so keen to get back to my proper routines all round!

Yay, morning run, oh how I've missed you :)

I've decided I need to get new running shoes as a matter of priority - I've never got round to have my gait assessed or anything and my old trainers are wearing out. Silly thing that could be easily sorted and might make the difference to my dodgy hip...

BigChoc re: fasting and muscle wastage. A month or so ago we were discussing 0 cal fasts and you said they are bad because of muscle wastage. I have since spoken to Dr Varady and she said that 0 cal fasts are absolutely fine. Could you supply the page number you got her quote from? I'll quote it to her and ask for more info.

Wombles Varady's book quotes animal studies and examining various % TDEE for FDs. She says she decided on 25% TDEE for her ADF as the optimum to lose weight while retaining muscle.
On my Kindle, it is pages 17-18, see my screen shots.

I think I've read her answering someone on FB to say zero-cal FDs are ok. However, I can't remember if she meant as an occasional thing, or it was ok regularly if you found it easier to zero-fast than do 500 cals.

I recommend against zero-cal FDs because retaining muscle is a top priority to maintain weight loss and also for exercisers to maintain performance (This is an exercise thread !)
It's not certain you lose muscle on regular zero-cal, but why risk it when you can avoid it ?

Some reports on lifting sites of a few women on ADF who have suffered health issues, so I want everyone here to be careful, safe not sorry.

btw: if you talk to her, do ask if she noted / checked about women on ADF stopping periods for a while. There seem to be quite a few women exercisers reporting this, like you.

Hi folks

Re 24 hour fasts:
I've been doing 24 hour LOFs once a week for quite a while now - certainly since before I began weight-bearing exercises - so all the muscle I've gained has been whilst LOFing.

The difference is, IMO, that Varady is talking exclusively about ADF, where I should imagine her strictures about 25% FDs are right on, it seems to me.

I should be loathe to start eating more than one meal on my fast days - I really enjoy the feelings of well-being I get on those days, which seem to last for several days after.

But I've just thought - are we talking about the same thing? I count my 24 hours from, say, 7pm on one day, to 6-7pm on the next day, when I generally have a low-cal dinner, sometimes as low as 120 cals (instead of the 600 I'm allowed).

On the occasion I've gone 36-40 hours with no food at all, I've felt positively euphoric.

But to do that more than once a week may well lead to muscle loss. And yet, surely, this is something our ancestors must have had to do.

Maybe we need to try different methods and see what works for us?

Fascinating!

B&W 24 hours on zero cals should be ok, but I think is the safe maximum for regular fasts.
FDs are generally a day plus 2 nights, so 32hrs+, like this:

. Eat supper the day before
. On FD, eat your 500 / 600 cals. All at supper if you like, for 24-hr zero-cal fast
. On the next day, eat normally

Studies of one-off zero-cal fasts have shown muscular wastage only starts at 60-70 hrs. However, those were all for MEN and it is very different to fasting every other day, with a permanent large weekly deficit.

Scientific studies of both humans and animals, plus reports from reliable IF lifting sites, including Lean Gains Martin Berkhan, strongly suggest that women are more vulnerable when fasting than men.

For me, health is top priority in this WOE, so I warn against zero-cal FDs, because they seem an unnecessary risk for no additional gain.

btw: I'm always cautious about basing our actions on what our ancestors did 10,000 years ago. Maybe the ones who survived and became dominant were those who were NOT weakened by 36-hours without food every other day.

Baloo You asked about elliptical machines, to save dodgy knees from running sprints.

I'm not a fan of cardio machines, because gyms plonk so many women on them for long, boring steady state sessions, which bring very little.
Note: the calorie counters are often very optimistic.

If you use the machines, do so for HIIT intervals, e.g. some of the Fast Fitness Blasts I posted earlier. Think intensity, not length of training.

Also good for the knees and fitness: HIIT spinning. I do a few sessions of this per week and have never the slightest knee twinge. Our trainers sometimes incorporate Tabata sessions in the spin, for even more effect.

Thanks BigChoc I'm still waiting to hear back from her. Will report back.

Specially for IceLemon

This is just adding 10-15 mins, say 5 days per week.
(For the park, maybe tie the dog to a tree so he can watch, then do his walk afterwards ?)

HIIT Swimming Intervals
Add these to your swimming sessions.
Each interval consists of:
. 60 secs sprint (count in your head) plus
. 90 secs slow swim recovery
Start with 1 interval and build up gradually to 5 intervals, one after the other.

HIIT Running Blast
One day per week when you are NOT swimming, do this very short routine before you walk

.Warmup for 1-4 mins,
.20 sec sprint as hard as you can, at a level where you can't do another 2 secs.
.about 2 min gentle jog / walk to recover
.another 20 sec burst at max intensity.
.final recovery period of 2-4 mins jog or walk

HIIT Strength Pairs

On 3 days per week, do these very short routines (at home /park):

• day1 = press-ups, with sit-ups
• day2 = tricep dips on bench or step, with squats
• day3 = kettle bell 2-handed-swing with plank

Routine:
. Brief warmup for 1-4 mins, e.g. skipping or jogging on the spot
. As many reps of exercise 1 as you can in 30 secs
. Rest 10 secs
. 30 secs of exercise 2, as many reps as you can
. Rest 10 secs
. Do these "double intervals" of Exercises1 and 2 for 5-10 mins
. Brief cool-down, then stretch

Interesting snippet - the new release of BodyPump that is going out to gyms at the moment no longer recommends ever increasing weight - it now promotes lower weight but doing EVERY rep and perfect technique