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Fasting / 5:2 diet

5:2 Exercise & Fitness: Advice and information for those following 5:2 / IF (Intermittent Fasting)

999 replies

BigChocFrenzyAteYourReindeer · 31/12/2013 01:51

Why Exercise ?

Maintaining a normal bodyweight and taking regular exercise are 2 major areas of life which we can address to improve our health.

Fasted training, i.e. training on FDs, seems to increase the benefits of both training and IF, but it is advisable to first become used to fasting

Exercise alone does not produce significant weight loss for most people. However it can improve body shape and can help overcome weight plateaux.

Regular exercise helps reduce the risk of obesity, type 2 diabetes, heart diesease, high blood pressure, some cancers, osteoporosis, dementia, depression.

  • Try to train regularly, building up to 3-6 days per week.
  • Develop a training routine you enjoy and want to continue long term.
  • Regular exercisers gain the greatest benefits over their lifetime and they can minimise biological aging, i.e. "Bend the Aging Curve" BendAge


WARNING:
If you are very obese or have health issues, check with your GP that you are able to start exercising and also if there are types of exercise you should avoid.
=====================================

Fat and Metabolism

Body fat is highly active tissue which secretes hormones (e.g. leptin, adiponectin) and microphages (which cause inflammation) directly into the bloodstream. These substances can significantly affect metabolism & weight and increase the risk of diabetes, heart disease, high blood pressure, stroke, some cancers.
E.g ref and ref

Visceral fat is more dangerous than subcutaneous - a study found that liposuction removing up to 20lb of the latter did not improve health indicators. Visceral fat needs to be reduced by exercise and a calorie deficit, preferably both together.

Hormesis

"What doesn’t kill you makes you stronger"
Hormesis Mattson and Hormesis can be applied to exercise, analagous to how 5:2 /IF uses it for nutrition.
Alternating between “extremes” of feast and fast (like 5:2) or intense training and rest, makes the body more resilient.

The intermittent stress of lifting an extreme weight or performing at high speed for a short period pushes the body to overcompensate and prepare for an even greater future challenge HormesisTrain and AntiFragile
The following recovery period avoids damage from over-stressing.

INEFFICIENT: Low-Medium Intensity Steady state Cardio

Steady state cardio is not necessary and should only be a small part of your weekly cardio, unless it is all you can manage to do.

Only high intensity exercise recruits the fast-twitch muscle fibers that have the most glycogen (stored glucose). Steady State Cardio does not empty the glucose stores in those particular muscles. Hence, the circulating glucose has nowhere to be stored — except as bodyfat.

Moreover, the muscle cells will lose their sensitivity to insulin and become inflamed by the high levels of insulin, which the body has produced to deal with the high levels of circulating glucose. The body mortars this inflammation with LDL cholesterol.

Hence, those exercising only at low-medium intensity are at greater risk of cardiovascular problems than high intensity exercisers SteadyState (pp. 31-34).
Obviously, non-exercisers have the highest risk of all.

RECOMMENDED TYPES of Exercise

HIIT cardio and resistance training / weight lifting are recommended to boost the effect of 5:2/IF, to increase weight loss, reduce body fat, retain muscle and maintain TDEE / BMR.

Anyone who is not specialising in a sport at a high level should aim to do a variety of training: HIIT cardio, resistance and flexibility.

HOW to Exercise

The cardio machines and the girlie pink dumbbells that gyms push are inadequate to significantly improve fitness or burn fat.
However, 10 mins walk on a treadmill or outside is beneficial after training, especially after heavy lifting.
Scientists have proved that cardio and resistance training can be done in the same session, without detriment to either, e.g. TrainBoth

Whether you join a gym or train at home or in the park:
  • Train as intensively as your time, health and fitness level allow.
  • Do not remain in your comfort zone, or you will not improve.
  • You are supposed to drip sweat and pant heavily !

However, a brisk 30 mins daily walk plus 5 mins hoop is better than nothing and if done regularly will bring some health benefits.

Flexibility

  • Stretching for 5 mins before and after each training session is recommended
  • Yoga and Pilates classes can be added if additional flexibility training is desired. Some such classes also provide additional strength / toning.


HIIT (High Intensity Interval Training)

HIIT is an exercise strategy which alternates brief intervals of high intensity exercise with less-intense recovery periods. Time intervals may be equal or different and their length and the number of sets depends on fitness level.

Start with one session per week and build up to a maximum of 3 (no more).

HIIT is very time-efficient, producing the greatest fitness benefit in the least time (the advantage of hormesis). However, beginners should build up gradually, starting say with just 1 or 2 intervals.

Scientists have proved that HIIT burns more fat than steady state lower intensity exercise and speeds up the metabolism, which helps burn more calories for up to 48 hrs.

HIIT increases both aerobic and anaerobic endurance

HIIT can be applied to cardio: e.g. cycling, running, skipping, jumping, mountain climbs
or to bodyweight exercises, e.g. squatting, situps, burpees, pressups

Most gyms offer classes, e.g.
spinning, circuit training, CrossFit, Tabata, Fartlek(Fartlek = HIIT with irregular intervals)
which each use a form of interval training.
These classes require less planning and are often more enjoyable (music, socialising, equipment) than training on your own.

A typical HIIT session could consist of:
  • 4 mins warmup
  • 8 sets of intervals
  • 4 mins cooldown

and last 12-60 mins in total.

Recovery time is usually half the high intensity time.
Examples of typical interval sets are:
  • 20 seconds high intensity + 10 secs recovery OR
  • 40 sec high + 20 sec low OR
  • 60 sec high + 30 sec low


Detailed HIIT example plans: (scroll down to Workouts section and ignore whether entitled "cutting" or "bulking") BodyBuild

RESISTANCE Training / LIFTING

This helps retain muscle mass during weight loss and hence to maintain TDEE.

It is easier in a gym, especially re equipment. You can lift in the weights area on your own OR in a pump class.
Whether @ gym or home, before you start lifting, have a few lessons with a trainer to learn the correct form and avoid injury.

It is best not to train the same muscle groups 2 days in succession, so have rest days, or cardio, or train different muscle groups on different days.
Try to build up to weight training for 30-60 mins twice per week.

WARNING
The "Heavy" lifting described here should not exceed bodyweight unless you are really fit and expert.
Women who have given birth and / or are aged 40+ have a higher risk of pelvic floor / prolapse injuries when lifting heavy than young non-mums.

Main Lifting / Resistance Exercises

Reps = the number of repetitions in a set of a particular lifting exercise
Sets are normally separated by brief rests
E.g. you might do 3 sets each of 12 reps all of the same exercise.

If you have access to dumbbells / barbells, then for maximum effect, work the large muscle groups. Alternatively, use bodyweight.
squats
bent-over rows (press button "female")
Behind neckPress (press button "female")
dead lift
The abs and smaller muscle groups will automatically be trained by these exercises, but you can add optionally 20 mins weekly abs exercises:

Basic Abs
  • Situps: build up to 3 sets of 20 reps. Try to put your arms in front of you, instead of behind your head
  • Angled situps: with one ankle resting on the opposite knee. 2 sets of 15 each side
  • Plank: 3 sets, each 45 secs
  • Leg extensions: legs bent 90 degrees, so your lower legs are parallel to the floor. Stretch each leg in turn, parallel to the floor. 3 sets of 10.


Lifting To increase Strength Rather than Muscle Mass
Lift as heavy as you can, low reps, with 1 minute rest between sets
e.g. 5 sets x 5 reps each, i.e. totalling 25 lifts.

Lifting To Build More Muscle
With a lower weight, do 3 sets x 8-20 reps, i.e. totalling 24-60 lifts.

Additionally, or if you don't have heavy barbells, use your bodyweight.
Example to build up to:
  • 3 sets of 30 press ups, proper ones, see detail below +.
  • 40 deep squats, with thighs parallel to floor, i.e. ATG (Arse to Grass) see ++.
  • 3 set of 8 reps inverted pullup /row Inverted OR assisted chin-ups on a gym machine OR full chin-ups if you can manage them (Amazon have pullup bars which fit over doors from about £15)


+Press ups
  • It is best to keep attempting one proper pressup rather than doing several dozen girlie ones with your knees on the floor.
  • Once you can do one pressup, you will soon be able to build up to 5, then 10 etc.
  • Tip: keep the abs rigid, so strong abs are as important as strong shoulders & arms.


++Squats
  • Are the best exercise for the large muscle group in bum and thighs.
  • Basic principle: It is like having a pee on a public loo - get your bum down low and pointing to the rear, but not actually touching the seat.

-Lean back on your heels, so that weight is on them, not on your toes.
-For bodyweight squats, bring your arms forward
-Keep your back straight, but angled slightly forward, not vertical.
  • Go down as far as you can without knee pain.


CAUTION With Leangains-Type Protocols

5:2 is an easier WOL than other forms of IF, with most days being NFDs during which the body can recuperate.

Some women have had injuries or health problems with very tough LeanGains-type protocols, which combine ADF or daily 16:8 with fasted lifting of multiples of body weight.

Some women have achieved excellent results on LeanGains-type; others had problems after a few months, or even from the start. Particularly at risk are women with very low (11-18%) body fat, possibly already with irregular menstruation, or with EDs.

Post-menopausal women seem to do well, as do men, presumably due to differences in hormones, body fat %, metabolism.

RECOMMENDATION: Don't lift more than your bodyweight and mostly lift well below it.

Running versus Walking

Walking is beneficial psychologically, is easy on the knee joints and has some physical benefits.

However, at speeds of 5mph or faster, running will burn more calories per mile than walking Ref . Typical values:

- For running (5 mph and higher): Total calories burned per mile = .75 x body weight (in pounds); net calories (see ++) burned per mile = .63 x weight.
  • For walking (3 to 4 mph): Total calories burned per mile = .53 x body weight; net calories burned per mile = .30 x weight.


++ Note: net calories = total calories - cals the body would have burned at rest (calculated from BMR)

AVOID OSTEOPOROSIS

We start losing bone density from about age 35. Women can lose a great deal before, during and after menopause.

Other risk factors: Smoking, heavy drinking, inactive lifestyle, very slim build, family history of osteoporosis, longterm steroid use.

To retain bone strength and avoid a painfully disabled old age, start now:
Ideally weight bearing exercises that load the bone along its length

Impact exercise E.g. walking, running, jumping, skipping rope, step class, hitting a heavy punch bag.

Lifting: squats, press-ups, bench press, overhead press etc.

Squats are much better than lunges: The weight in a squat is transmitted down along the spine, through the hip, and down along the bones of the leg, whereas in a lunge, it is transmitted across the shinbone and puts pressure on the knee joint.

Cycling normally does NOT increase bone density as it does not really load bones along their length. A study found that cyclists who did no other exercise had low bone density because of the combo of this with their training Osteo

KETTLEBELLS

Useful exercise descriptions and videos: Kettle
Recommended for beginners (and shown in the link):
. Two-handed swing
. Sumo Deadlift
. Turkish Getup
. Swing
. Clean and Jerk
. Press

How to Choose a Gym (if you want to)

  • gym offpeak can be as cheap as £30 p.m. as you don't need expensive pools, sauna, juice bars, massage etc.
  • within journey time 20 mins
  • plenty of classes at times to suit you
  • creche if needed
  • don't bother with expense of a personal trainer.


Start with these classes if available:
  • weekly spin, because you can set your own resistance and speed 45-60 mins
  • any additional interval training class, see earlier for list.
  • weekly pump 60 mins
  • weekly abs class 15-30 mins


======================================

CALCULATORS:
Estimate your fitness age: FitAge
Estimate Vo2Max iTunes App: Vo2APP
Body Fat Calculator:BF
Healthy Body Fat Percentages at Different Ages:
HealthyBF
TDEE with detailed activity times: TDEE

More links:
52FastDietForum-Fasting & Exercise 52exercise
GettingStronger.Org-Hormesis Hormesis
GettingStronger.Org-Fitness Fitness
LeanGains Protocols : Leangains
MarksDailyApple-Home Workouts Without Equipment WorkAtHome
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ErrolTheDragon · 02/01/2014 13:33

Interesting thread - I've not even read all the OP yet but intend to.
However, I did the FitAge thing and it came out as 39. I was 53 yesterday so I'm not quite sure I believe that but encouraging! Grin

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LilyJoAndMe · 02/01/2014 14:53

Thanks for this detailed and interesting post. Just starting 5:2 here.

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BigChocFrenzyAteYourReindeer · 02/01/2014 15:18

Dr Varady's ADF book

I just bought it and I'm skimming the highlights before I go spinning:

  • She listed a huge number of health benefits that exercise brings.


  • She said her study participants did not have problems with fasted training.


  • She did a study comparing 3 groups:

Exercise only (moderate cardio on gym bike) /ADF no exercise / ADF with exercise.
Those who just exercised lost only ? the weight of ADF alone
The ADF exercisers lost twice as much weight as ADF alone.

Unfortunately, she hasn't yet studied lifting or HIIT with IF, probably because it'smuch easier to measure cardio exercise input / output.
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BigChocFrenzyAteYourReindeer · 02/01/2014 15:34

More from Varady book:

-Most dieters lose weight in the ratio 75% fat: 25% muscle
-Muscle burns 7 times as many cals as same weight of fat.

  • This is a major reason for regaining weight after diets, because fewer cals are then burned per day for the same activity.

In her studies, no one regained weight after ADF (probably different in the real world without professional support)

-Exercisers no-ADF lost 1.2" waist Nd increased good HDL cholesterol
-ADF no exercise lost 2" waist and decreased bad LDL cholesterol.
-The ADF exercisers lost 3" waist and zero muscle. They increased HDL and lowered LDL cholesterol.

Emphasises what we already knew: diet is key, but exercise can boost it.
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BiscuitsAreMyDownfall · 02/01/2014 16:11

what time of day do I like to exercise?
Preferably first thing. I like to get up and go. I like to go out for a run, but I live in the countryside so I have to run on roads so don't get chance to go as early as I'd like. Looking forward to summer and the lighter mornings.

how many days per week?
I'd like to go out 3 or 4 days a week.

what and when do I eat
Nothing before (unless I've gone out for an afternoon run) don't usually eat until lunch anyway then it depends if it's soup on a FD or whatever else I find.

Just come in from an 8 mile run. Feel great for it.

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TalkinPeace · 02/01/2014 16:15

OOOH Another Glenn miller and Fred and Ginger fan here.
About 20 years ago one of Ginger's dresses came up at auction - I was WAY too fat for it then.
I'm not now ....

Interesting point about menopause and middle age spread ....
somewhere in the tips and hints thread is a table I did working out my TDEE for the same weight at different ages.
Calorie requirements dropped by 30% between 20 and 70 !

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TalkinPeace · 02/01/2014 16:18

what time of day do I like to exercise?
In the morning after dropping the kids at school.
That routine will change in September when DD goes to college though and during my work months I have to exercise in the evenings.

how many days per week?
Ideally every week day as I spend weekends in my garden exercising at digging etc.

what and when do I eat
Week days, nothing in the morning - tea every day, glass of OJ on non fast days
small lunch on non fast days, more tea on fast days
supper with family
weekends I have breakfast (late) and supper

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EarSlaps · 02/01/2014 16:34

What time of day do you all like to exercise and what is your program ?
-I like exercising in the morning best of all but don't get the chance really, so I usually exercise around lunchtime (before eating), or about 8pm (either before eating or about 3hrs after a light dinner with the children). Most of my exercise is Jillian Michaels DVDs- I've done shred and six week six pack, now working on ripped in 30. I also have others of hers I squeeze in here and there. Sometimes I do a couple of circuits of the seven minute workout, or some hula hooping, or very rarely a jog. I'm planning to start doing some slightly heavier weights soon too.

How many days pw?
Usually 3-5 days pw.

What and when do I eat before training?
As little as possible really- I try and make sure I exercise on an empty stomach. Now I'm down to lower body fat I'm not so worried about having to exercise in a fasted state though. Plus I have the occasional protein shake after exercise now if I do something strength based.

Tip- I guess the drop in TDEE assumes that as you age you have less lean muscle (ie metabolically active tissue) so therefore need to eat a lot less. I wouldn't mind betting that keeping with the strength training to maintain muscle mass offsets that quite a lot so your TDEE doesn't take such a dive.

BigChoc- that book sounds really interesting. I might look into it.

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ErrolTheDragon · 02/01/2014 16:35

what time of day do I like to exercise?
shred (or similar) weekdays, first thing after DD is off to school.
Often some sort of walk later on which may or may not constitute 'exercise' - if its rainy the dog will only want to go over the road and back!

how many days per week
shred 5 days; walk as above; usually some sort of family activity one weekend day (walk, cycle or in season watersports)

what and when do I eat
On the two fast days, just drinks and maybe an apple for lunch and then an evening meal - I detest calorie counting so quite often a ready meal plus veg so its mostly done for me.

The other days - pretty much anything, within reason. I started 5:2 because I was totally fed up with 'watching what I eat' all the bloody time and still gradually gaining weight. My appetite is better controlled since starting 5:2 anyway. Default breakfast is berries, seeds, nuts and natural yogurt; lunch something like veg soup or beans with cheese, dinner 'normal' sort of stuff - eg spag bol with not too much spag and lots of veg. Chocolate is no longer taboo. Smile

Over xmas hols though, I've been deliberately having a break from any sort of regime. Lots of sleep! Smile

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Lazysuzanne · 02/01/2014 17:51

What time of day do you all like to exercise and what is your program
early afternoon
average 4 strength training sessions and 5 hours gym cardio per week
walk 2-3 miles per day
20-30 mins yoga most days

How many days pw
I take a day off every 6-7 days

What and when do I eat before training
I'm vegetarian, no refined/junk food, no alcohol
training is always fasted, I eat from 4pm to midnight and train at the end of the 16 hour fasting period

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BigChocFrenzyAteYourReindeer · 02/01/2014 21:16

Tip I also wonder if the reduced TDEE for you is really valid.
You are very active and I think we're similar height, but mine at 57 is 2400 with the calculator on this site - it lets you input a lot more detail - and that fits with my intake.

Why not try this calculator too, for your variois ages ?

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TalkinPeace · 02/01/2014 21:21

Bigchoc
for the set in the other thread I assumed sedentary - as most people our age do not clear their heads by lifting weights Wink

my TDEE in a gym week is 1952 but in a work week is 1524
because when I work I drive then sit then drive then sit - repeat for 5 days 14 hour days !

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Fridayschild · 02/01/2014 21:21

Great thread! I am bored of putting on weight now I seem to have passed the meno, so this year I am going to start my first diet. Fasting tomorrow. However I cycle to work and back, a 16 mile round trip and I am a bit worried about being Absolutely Famished at work... The only thing to do is to give it a go!

As well as cycling I run about twice a week and do a Pilates class. Plus I am doing some lunges and squats in anticipation of skiing. The prospect of fasting and exercise being a strong combination is very motivational.

I'm a bit sceptical of that age calculator. It has me as 20 years younger than my actual age. Is it trying to chat us up?

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TalkinPeace · 02/01/2014 21:33

PS BigChoc - the age claculator says I'm 24 - gobsmacked!

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BigChocFrenzyAteYourReindeer · 02/01/2014 21:48

Just back from the gym after HIIT spin and 60 mins weights. I needed the extra time after not much Xmas training.

I really like this class: mostly HIIT, good music with a beat, plus a totally manic trainer with an incredible range of screeches to motivate that final extra effort each song.

She does a couple of tracks with 20 ultra-short standing sprints, several more with assorted longer intervals and pressups on the handlebars. Also a few tracks with continual sprinting or hill climbs etc.

With belonging to 2 gyms, I've picked really good classes that I could never reproduce at home.

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BigChocFrenzyAteYourReindeer · 02/01/2014 22:06

Friday, Tip: Barring serious illness or injury, your biological age is largely determined by your fitness level, so by your exercise routine.
Smile

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BigChocFrenzyAteYourReindeer · 02/01/2014 22:09

My age is apparently

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TalkinPeace · 02/01/2014 22:18

You are only as old as the man you lech at during a gym class Xmas Grin

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BigChocFrenzyAteYourReindeer · 02/01/2014 22:45

Tip !
Grin

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MrsFlorrick · 02/01/2014 22:52

Thanks I feel special. Waist quadruplets. Grin

No workout today. But I have been the Dummy Fairy. They've given up the dummies and I have bought two guinea pigs for them. Grin

Poor little piggies looked terrified when I brought them home. Hopefully they'll settle in well as we don't have any other pets.

Their home is in the playroom because its warm and not draughty and lots of sun during the day. Just worried the DC will be too noisy for the piggies.

And that had absolutely nothing to do with exercise, burning fat or adding muscle. Wink

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BigChocFrenzyAteYourReindeer · 03/01/2014 00:42

Another quote from Varady that I must share: she says repeatedly that if you exercise on ADF, you gain muscle (in contrast to most diets where 25% of loss is muscle).
She says ADF without exercise approx. maintains muscle.

It is frustrating we have to extrapolate from ADF to 5:2. Also it is not clear if she means previous non-ezercisers.
However, I have gained muscle and also lost a few lb, while just continuing HIIT and lifting. We know successful LeansGainers have also gained muscle.

My hypothesis
IF, regardless if ADF / 5:2 /16:8 / Fast 5, can increase muscle with intensive exercise.

Exciting stuff !

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Eatriskier · 03/01/2014 08:18

what time of day do I like to exercise?
When I can - not easy with a 3yo and a 15mo. But I get up with DH and get on the cross trainer whilst he is in his massive preening before work session (how do men take so long in the bathroom?) so if one of the DC wake early he can look after them until I've finished. I hoop in the evening as DH does the bath with the DCs.

how many days per week?
2 days on cross trainer/cycle, 3 days with hula hoop and I always get a good walk in everyday - even if its just a hike around my living room whilst the DCs are asleep or something like jogging around whilst cleaning.

what and when do I eat
on FDs nothing, on NFDs I will always hoop before dinner but will have had my normal breakfast and lunch that day. Nothing immediately before normally.

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ELR · 03/01/2014 11:23

Loved the link b&w and really enjoying reading this thread! I have ordered a weighted hula hoop!

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Lazysuzanne · 03/01/2014 11:54

Re Dr Varady and research in general, possibly there are so few regular long term exercisers that research concentrates on those who were previously non exercisers.

Regular long term female strength trainers are an especially rare breed!

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tomorrowweeat · 03/01/2014 15:10

Please could any of you knowledgeable folk reccomend how i should start exercising. I have got fasting under my ever tightening belt and now feel ready to add in some exercise. But where does a still overweight, unfit, 60 year old start? I don't have a local gym.

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