5:2 Diet Thread! 12! Cheaper by the dozen!

[GreenEggsAndNichts]

The continuing thread for those of us following either the 5:2 diet or the alternate-day fasting diet.

The 5:2 diet was featured on Horizon in August 2012, and essentially requires you to fast for 2 non-consecutive days per week. The other 5 days, you can eat what you like, or approximately your TDEE (see explanation below). Alternate-day fasting is just how it sounds; you fast every other day. By "fasting", we mean that we keep our calorie consumption very low, around 500 calories on average for a woman, 600 for a man, on those days.

You'll find on these threads we use a number of acronyms. If you're new to the threads, or Mumsnet in general, they might not make much sense.

WOE/WOL = Way Of Eating/Way Of Life. We use this term instead of "diet" as many of us see this as something to do in the long term.

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a website many use for keeping track of the number of calories they're eating.

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, quantifies the number of calories you burn in a day. This measure is best estimated by scaling your Basal Metabolic Rate to your level of activity. TDEE is critical in tailoring your nutrition plan to desired fitness goals. Here is a link to a calculator to help you figure out how many calories you should be eating in a day.

ADF = Alternate-day Fasting, as it says on the tin, fasting every other day rather than 5:2.

Michael Mosley has recently unveiled a new website to accompany his new book on the subject. Please go check them out, as he's the whole reason most of us are here!

I know a number of people lurk on this thread, as this is currently quite popular. Please just jump in and post if you're new- we won't bite. Well, maybe on a fast day. You'll find a lot of support here.

Here is a list of links to get you started with this way of eating. Please let us know if you find a new article or some other information online:

First things first, here are links to some of our previous threads: most recent one before that another one!

Another thread which breadandwine has started is a good resource for some of the links and tips that get lost in these big threads. In addition to sharing links, we try to condense some of our top tips for fasting there. Keep in mind, we all do this differently, so these are just tips, not rules. This might be a good place to catch up with us if you're feeling a bit lost!

frenchfancy has a recipe thread over here, please post any low-calorie recipes there so they don't get lost in these bigger threads!

Here is the link to the BBC article regarding Michael Mosley's findings, which was featured on Horizon.

B&W has found a new link to the aforementioned Horizon programme here. If you're keen to see it, watch it soon, because BBC has been quick to find these copies and shut them down online. We're hoping they'll re-play it again soon. I know these threads are popular, maybe they'll read my request.

A blog post here gives some of the scientific explanation for why this way of eating helps you to not only lose weight, but improve your all-around health.

A Telegraph article which comments on the diet and gives a brief overview.

A study discussed here gives commentary specifically addressing the effect of this diet on obese people (both men and women), with regard to both health and weight loss. ("After 8 weeks of treatment, participants had an average 12.5 lbs reduction in body weight and a 4 cm decrease in waist circumference. Total fat mass declined by about 12 lbs while lean body mass remained relatively constant.) it also mentions "Plasma adiponectin, a protein hormone that is elevated in obesity and associated with heart disease, dropped by 30%. As did LDL cholesterol (25%) and triglycerides (32%).")

Something to consider if you are currently your ideal BMI: this appears to suggest the benefits for women at a lower BMI might not be seeing the same health benefits that are found on men at their ideal BMI.

Another food link, here is a link to the BBC Good Food site, with a list of low-calorie soups.

A BIG THANK YOU to all who have been contributing, btw. Most of us are learning this way of eating as we go along. All of the links above have been posted by others in our previous threads, and they've been very helpful. Sorry if I haven't given credit where it's due, but it was just enough of a job getting all the links re-copied and back into one post.

Come join us, and tell us about your experiences with this diet!

ciderwithbuda thanks for your advice. I have never heard of a Magnesium / Migraine link before but know I do sometimes have leg cramps which are associated with Magnesium deficiency.

I will try taking extra Magnesium to see if it helps the Migraine !

do [you] have that slice of pizza and wedges with dinner ???

needtaloseit check out the calorie counted pizza - and wedges - on the recipe thread.

As far as I'm concerned, nothing is off limits on an eating day - provided you don't overdo it, of course!

Emma have a look at the calorie counted flour and water pancake recipe on the same thread. Cost about a penny each and less than 100 calories for each pancake - including lemon and sugar!

politico Welcome to the thread - and welcome to all the newcomers today.

About sticking to the limits:
When I began IFing, nearly 12 months ago, there wasn't a lot of info about, so I began by halving my calorie intake on two days a week, and I still lost weight - as I said at the time, without even trying! Only when the Horizon programme came out in August did I go to the full

I haven't read the whole thread but I need to drop a couple of stone. So I just thought I'd eat less. I get bloated when I eat certain foods and have a few allergies. Got to start now.

Me again, still carrying on with 5:2 (haven't posted for a while due to RL distractions). I am finding it quite easy now and frequently re-read the Dr MM book.
Some thoughts now I have been doing it for a few months: I am better with solid food, so for example better if I have a slice of rye bread which has the same calories as a bowl of soup, because I just get so hungry after the soup. I know that soup is meant to be wonderfully filling but it doesn't seem to work for me (which is a pity as I really love it). I wonder if some people just respond better to solids.
Otherwise I often feel really full the day after fasting (before I have eaten much - interesting).
One other thing, I was stuck with very few food choices while travelling for work last week and ended up at a small Prezzo restaurant and had one of their light pizzas, just a very tiny version of the ordinary pizza plus salad: not very substantial. This wasn't a fast day but most of the other choices were just incredibly high calorie. I later thought that I could have ordered an ordinary Fiorentina with no cheese at all, just the tomato sauce on the base (and instead sprinkle a teaspoon of parmesan on it as that would be enough cheese for me). I am not sure how I might calculate the reduction in calories (as a Fiorentina is apparently normally around 900 calories, but I suspect much of that will be the cheese).

Giraffe - what's this Paul Mckenna you are talking about? A quick sum-up and how it can help, please?
Stickygingerbread - I read too about how being apple-shaped is not bad as it has been touted to be. Will try and find it for you. Good news for people like me!

www.dailypioneer.com/home/online-channel/health-a-fitness/126904-asthma-drug-shows-promise-in-treating-diabetes-obesity.html
This is an article which talks of an asthma drug helping to treat obesity. What I found interesting was this: "One of the reasons that diets are so ineffective in producing weight loss for some people is that their bodies adjust to the reduced calories by also reducing their metabolism, so that they are 'defending' their body weight," says Alan Saltiel, director of the University of Michigan's Life Sciences Institute (LSI), which conducted the study.
Maybe this is why we plateau after initial success. Our body is fighting to hold on to the fat!

www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-12702227 This is the article stickygingerbread about doubts emerging on whether being apple-shaped increases heart risk. It reiterates that obesity is bad, wherever the fat is concentrated though.

Well this is really interesting. Today is scheduled as a fast day for me but it started going wrong quite early on, but as a result I have learned some things which may help me.

As I said in my post yesterday, today is weigh day but, as expected, I?ve stayed the same weight. I think I should go back to weighing myself once a fortnight as that seemed to give me a psychological advantage. As others have said, the weight loss isn?t linear, so one week I?ll have a good loss, but the week after a big loss I?ll almost always stay the same. I always tell myself this is perfectly normal but that doesn?t stop me pouting just a little bit when it happens. So having stayed the same weight this week, even though I was expecting it, I was feeling a little pouty this morning.

Weighing myself once a fortnight I almost always get a lower reading each time and avoid the poutiness. A friend has asked if she can have my set of bathroom scales when I go home as I was going to have to leave them behind anyway. I think I will ignore this week?s reading, weigh myself next Tuesday as my fortnightly weigh-in and then give my friend the scales straight away so that I?m not tempted to jump on the scales again until I?m back in the UK.

Lesson One: I shouldn?t weigh myself more often than once a fortnight.

I had arranged to meet a friend in KFC this morning. What!? Meeting in KFC on a fast day?! What were you thinking!? You may well ask, but it?s a pretty good venue to meet up with friends, due to lack of comfy affordable cafés here, and not particularly being a big fan of KFC I have spent hours in there on fast days at least once a week since I got here without being the slightest bit tempted. I think there must definitely be something to the notion that junk food is addictive. Since I have been forced (I?m not kidding, I?ve honestly had no choice due to circumstances , see previous posts for reasons) to eat junk food all week on non-fast days, today I was, for the very first time in 5 months, really tempted to chuck in the towel and scoff a big bucket of fried chicken.

Lesson Two: Junk food really is addictive, so when I get the opportunity to eat real food again I will take it.

Then, when my friend still hadn?t turned up five minutes after the time we?d arranged I realised I?d gone to the wrong KFC. So after sending an apologetic text I felt very sheepish and even poutier than before, and was even more tempted by that big bucket of fried chicken. I decided to try to stick to the fast so I left KFC and planned to just go home, stopping at the bakery to get the fruit slice thing I usually have for breakfast on a non-fast. This is not normally a problem for me as the only other things that bakery sells are either ridiculous prices or not something I like? except today. Today they had huge chunks of chocolate sponge cake for only 4 yuan. So there I was, stood in the bakery, pouting for all of the above reasons plus the fact that the internet in my building is still not working so to go online I have to go somewhere else. I suddenly felt like I couldn?t muster any more willpower to stick to today?s fast, nor could I face the prospect of spending the entire afternoon in my room with no internet to distract me. So I got the fruit slice for tomorrow and one of the big hunks of cake. I managed to muster just enough willpower not to shovel the cake right there on the pavement and instead decided to give up on the fast day, call this a 5:2 week (I do 4:3 due to a low TDEE and a stubborn refusal to count a single calorie on non-fast days), go home, eat the cake with a cuppa and then take my laptop into Starbucks for the afternoon, which would mean another cinnamon swirl as I still refuse to spend 30 yuan on coffee? and maybe end up in KFC again for dinner.

So I went home, and at the bottom of my cuppa, after having eaten the cake, I felt much more like myself again. It occurred to me that it wasn?t really cake, but more like sponge and had probably been steamed rather than baked. I then noticed it had a kilojoule count on the packet: 1045kJ for the whole thing, which I worked out to be about 250 kcal. Hmm? ?not too disastrous? I thought to myself. Now feeling much more myself I worked out I could probably get something small to nibble at 6pm (10am UK time so not long to go now ) from the supermarket for under 250 kcal and salvage the day. So instead of taking my laptop to Starbucks, here I am, sat on a damp wall outside a building I found on campus with an unsecured WiFi connection to post this (MN is also addictive it seems ), feeling pleased with myself for managing to salvage a fast day for the very first time. (In 5 months I?ve given up on about 4 or 5 fast days, each time because of proper hunger for real food. This was the first time I nearly gave in to emotional hunger. Although I am jonesing for real food too, but there isn?t anywhere to get any. )

Lesson Three: next time I feel like I can?t carry on with a fast day I?ll eat something, drink something and wait half an hour before deciding to call it a non-fast day

Lesson Four: there is no situation so dire that cannot be improved by a good cuppa tea!

I?m relieved actually, this week has been really expensive. I?ve been spending around 60 yuan (about £6) a day just on food this week when I normally only spend 14 yuan. 60 yuan a day may not sound like much, but when your weekly everything budget is just 200 yuan it?s painful!

Oh I?ve done it again: really long post. Sorry.

Ezzza Well done for turning your fast day around. Good lessons for us all I think.

I'm eating today,and going to my favourite restaurant for lunch Sould taste even better after a fast day.

ezzza well done for salvaging and there are some good tips there - particularly eat something and wait an hour before deciding to call quits on the fast day. i'll remember that one.

fast day here today and my training day at work thankfully so it will be easy for the day part at least. between training sessions i'm meant to be rushing off to view a house which requires some fast walking to make it there and back in time plus then i'll be walking home from work so plenty of good enough exercise on an empty stomach.

probably totally unconnected but sunday night after eating lamb at my sisters i came home and was violently sick. it's quite normal for lamb to give me a bit of an upset tummy the next day (i presume too rich for my stomach - very high fat content i think) but i've never thrown up before. then last night i started feeling really sick in the evening.

not sure what's going on but hope it doesn't happen today as often the only thing that quiets nausea for me is to nibble on salty snacks.

sorry probably totally nothing to do with this woe unless my stomach has gotten more sensitive to things that aren't good for it or something.

ezzza well done its a great feeling getting through a difficult fast day isn't it? I found yesterday very tough but felt really proud of myself that I came through with 20 calories to spare.

damn - i made the mistake of getting on the scales! a few pounds back up - though still under where i started by 3lbs and well aware it could be as simple as eating salty crap yesterday and retaining water.

think i'm going to make the rule only to weigh the morning after fasts. in between the weight obviously goes up again a bit but one would hope the post fast weight is going in a downward pattern.

see if i was calorie controlled or some other daily slog diet this would be really discouraging and prove it wasn't working blah blah blah. this way it doesn't have to be because it's going to go up and down a bit and i'm just looking for an overall downward trend.

Ezzza you're an inspiration for making all that effort. I shall remember your determination today when I'm trying to stick to my 2nd fast day. I spent some time in China in 1993 just after the first McDonalds opened in Beijing and I don't recall eating much in the way of healthy food!
My tentative plan for today was to make it until tonight without food so I had a 24 hr fast but I've unthinkingly made myself a normal cup of tea so I guess that means I've broken the fast. I can still make it a 500 cal day though.

Swallowed it is vital that you only weigh after fast days! Though be aware that salt/fat/alcohol can screw up your levels for several dats after. I usually weigh on a sat after a week of fasting and being sensible. I weighed today after a heavy weekend and I'm 2lb up. I know it's not real weight but it's annoying!

First day after the first fast. What a weird night - I slept pretty badly, had really vivid dreams and was apparently shouting in my sleep. Has anyone else experienced this, and does it go as your body adjusts?

Feel like I could eat a horse this morning but have settled for my normal toast and tea.

What are the rules then. Are we not supposed to weigh in regularly. What the timings for fast days ie how long.

Politico - a lot of people had funny things as they adjust to fasting. It does get massively easier.
Minimammoth there is loads of info in the opening post. There are no rules about weigh ins, just advice. A fast needs to be over a waking day.

scripsi I just finished my first fast day and I totally agree that I feel full this morning. Haven't had anything to eat or drink yet. Should I avoid eating until hungry?
I've noticed that quite a few of you are fasting for long stretches. Is there an advantage doing this over sticking to >500 calories eaten throughout the day. I ate my first meal at 1:30pm yesterday, not because I was particularly hungry, but more because I was worried I'd attack the food at a party if I didn't eat something.
I'm thinking I need to go out and buy some decaf coffee. I drank a lot more I than usual yesterday and found it quite hard to get to sleep. Does anyone find that instant decaf sinks? I had tried to drink it a few times when I was pregnant but hated the smell of it. Do you think that was a pregnancy thing or does it actually stink.

I think if you have an emotional response when looking at the scales then it needs to be done with caution and ideally only after the second fast of the week. If it's heartbreaking to see an upward move then just don't weigh in daily. I weigh myself too often these days but I don't let a 'wrong' result set the tone of my day plus I know that a rise is dictated by so many things other than actual, proper weight gain. However, I got overweight (nay, obese) by never looking at the scales so monitoring is essential, but not too often!

You are here because you've managed to discipline your eating, now's the time to discipline your weigh-ins too. The mirror is a useful daily guide, as are waistbands.

Apologies if that came across as bossy x

Wowzers what a read this morning!

Ezzza thanks for taking the time to post that. You should consider a blog! It's absolutely fantastic insights. I'm planning a fortnightly weigh in, if that - because I know how badly and irrationally I respond to a 1lb gain or even just no loss. I rant and wail like a madwoman and does no-one any good, least of all DH. And you're SO right - the temptation to just write a day off because of an early slip-up is so strong, but it's not essential...

Swallowed hope you're feeling bonnier today. Personally I would rather die than be sick - although in some ways I would welcome it if I suddenly became totally intolerant to fatty food

Mina have you seen the really long opening post? There's tons and tons of links and advice on exactly what to do...

well, yesterday I really enjoy the fast day - and I'm doing another today. I feel very very bloated and sluggish and would like to get a proper head start - so I'm planning on a total 24 hour fast, then at 6.30ish (ate early yesterday) getting stuck into a non-calorie-counted dinner (of PANCAKES!!!!)

I am assuming that since MM did, initially, a 4 day consecutive fast, that doing 48 hours on 500 cals and breaking that fast with a lovely big dinner won't kill me.

Because I have been fat all my life, and now I'm fat and getting old and I'm not young and pretty anymore, so it's time I tried really, really, really hard. Anyway, wish me luck!

Ninunina I think all instant coffee is a bit stinky! But yes, decaff is worse, don't they decaffeinate it with solvents? Can't be good for you. Maybe it's worth investigating other hot drink options? I'm drinking so much herbal tea on fast days that I now have a whole shelf devoted to them! I prefer Barley cup to instant coffee - only from health food shops though I think, annoyingly. As for when to eat on fast days and feed days, just experiment and see what works for you - and well done on doing your first fast!

Just broke my fast with some fruit and yogurt - so full now. I have to be really careful about what I eat the day after a fast, a large portion of anything carby makes me feel awful - just reminding myself before the little darlings start demanding pancakes!

Ezza God I feel for you, wishing I could conjure up some lovely, lightly steamed fresh veg for you :) You're very impressive for keeping it up in difficult circumstances.

Right I have been doing this for a few months and been maintaining my weight which is great as that is all I wanted to do. However I have gone a bit mad over dec and jan and actually gained weight, whilst fasting.

I have never eaten over 200O cals on a feed day. Normally around 1700.
I walk 5 miles 5 days a week.
I fast twice a week, low carb, higher protien.

Does anyone have any tips as to what I am doing wrong?
Typical fast day can be a couple of ryvita first thing(less than 100cals) and a 400 cal dinner of soup, stir fry or what ever.

Help!

Woke up this morning and started my non fast day not really hungry at all, a glass of hot waer and lemon and a small bowl of shreddies with skimmed milk and raisins and I feel bloated! Plans are to try and avoid snacking so I can enjoy pankaes tonight with out going over my non fast day calories.

Manvsfood Go for it! If you're in the frame of mind for another fast, why not! And good luck :)

I'm naturally finding that it's best to limit my post-fast day food intake and feel very peculiar if I don't. So now I have this routine (ideally):

Monday - fast
Tuesday - limited intake (via small, low carb meals)
Wednesday - normal
Thursday - fast
Friday - limited intake
Sat/Sun - normal plus baking(!)

Hence only paying attention to weigh-ins on Friday morning!

Skullnbones What do you mean by 'going a bit mad'? I assume you mean you've been eating more? Maybe you need to look at what you were eating when you were losing weight before December and compare that to what you are doing now. Do you keep a food diary or log everything on MFP so you can check?