5:2 Diet Thread! Perfect number 10!

[GreenEggsAndNichts]

The continuing thread for those of us following either the 5:2 diet or the alternate-day fasting diet. Both are two versions of Intermittent Fasting, which you can read more about here.

The 5:2 diet was featured on Horizon in August 2012, and essentially requires you to fast for 2 non-consecutive days per week. The other 5 days, you can eat what you like. Alternate-day fasting is just how it sounds; you fast every other day. By "fasting", we mean that we keep our calorie consumption very low, around 500 calories on average, on those days.

Michael Mosley has recently unveiled a new website to accompany his new book on the subject. Please go check them out, as he's the whole reason most of us are here!

I know a number of people lurk on this thread, as this is currently quite popular. Please just jump in and post if you're new- we won't bite. Well, maybe on a fast day. You'll find a lot of support here.

Here is a list of links to get you started with this way of eating. Please let us know if you find a new article or some other information online:

First things first, here are links to some of our previous threads: most recent one before that another one etc!

Another thread which breadandwine has started is a good resource for some of the links and tips that get lost in these big threads. In addition to sharing links, we try to condense some of our top tips for fasting there. Keep in mind, we all do this differently, so these are just tips, not rules. This might be a good place to catch up with us if you're feeling a bit lost!

frenchfancy has a recipe thread over here, please post any low-calorie recipes there so they don't get lost in these bigger threads!

Here is the link to the BBC article regarding Michael Mosley's findings, which was featured on Horizon.

B&W has found a new link to the aforementioned Horizon programme here. If you're keen to see it, watch it soon, because BBC has been quick to find these copies and shut them down online. We're hoping they'll re-play it again soon. I know these threads are popular, maybe they'll read my request.

A blog post here gives some of the scientific explanation for why this way of eating helps you to not only lose weight, but improve your all-around health.

A Telegraph article which comments on the diet and gives a brief overview.

A study discussed here gives commentary specifically addressing the effect of this diet on obese people (both men and women), with regard to both health and weight loss. ("After 8 weeks of treatment, participants had an average 12.5 lbs reduction in body weight and a 4 cm decrease in waist circumference. Total fat mass declined by about 12 lbs while lean body mass remained relatively constant.) it also mentions "Plasma adiponectin, a protein hormone that is elevated in obesity and associated with heart disease, dropped by 30%. As did LDL cholesterol (25%) and triglycerides (32%).")

Important link if you are currently your ideal BMI: this appears to suggest the benefits for women at a lower BMI might not be seeing the same health benefits that are found on men at their ideal BMI.

And for those already fasting, here is a link to 100 snacks under 100 calories. We tend to favour lots of hot drinks during the day (count your milk if you use it!)

Another food link, here is a link to the BBC Good Food site, with a list of low-calorie soups.

We mentioned BMR and TDEE often. Total Daily Energy Expenditure (TDEE) quantifies the number of calories you burn in a day. This measure is best estimated by scaling your Basal Metabolic Rate to your level of activity. TDEE is critical in tailoring your nutrition plan to desired fitness goals. Here is a link to a calculator to help you figure out how many calories you should be eating in a day. (This is a new calculator to previous threads, this one seems to give me approximately the same results the last one did, but without the virus warnings on my browser!)

A BIG THANK YOU to all who have been contributing, btw. Most of us are learning this way of eating as we go along. All of the links above have been posted by others in our previous threads, and they've been very helpful. Sorry if I haven't given credit where it's due, but it was just enough of a job getting all the links re-copied and back into one post.

Come join us, and tell us about your experiences with this diet!

Just checking in. Been doing this WOE since August. Have lost a stone in total. This includes a four pound weight gain over Xmas which has now gone. My DH is doing this with me but we sometimes fast on different days due to social commitments. He finds this WOE much easier than I do and can easily just not eat at all on a fast day, whereas I find that incredibly difficult and I get really tetchy towards my dinner time! I think part of why he finds it easy is that he doesn't have to ever think about food- we have an 8 year old DS but I am the one who does the shopping and food preparation. It's not a complaint, just a possible reason as to why maybe some men find this WOE a little easier in general. (I dont mean B&W as I know from reading his posts that he loves to cook).
Also DH has milk and sugar in his tea and I don't have either. He drinks about 12 cups a day (at least) so he is getting calories from his drinks when I am not.

Just a quick note to any newbies that are struggling or looking for stories of 'how it feels' - I had my most difficult fast ever just last week (like I say been doing this since August). Some days are easier than others. This cold weather isn't helping I'm sure.
I felt unwell to start with on this WOE and still get the odd headache on a fast day.

On the plus side however I am at the smaller end of my clothes size now, rather than 'the clothes too tight' end and that feels great. This WOE is the easiest way I've found of long term weightloss goals. Tried WW and Atkins previously and had some success but eventually real life took over and they failed resulting in me putting weight back on. There is no falling off the wagon with this. You just change the day you fast.
And the weightloss results will speak for themselves. Hopefully the health benefits will start to be reported here more frequently now more people are posting.

Hmm MM didn't answer my question either. It was about the heart issue. I have a connective tissue condition which leaves my aortic valve potentially weak & vulnerable to rupture. I suspect if I talk to gp/ cardiologist they'll tell me to err on cautious side ..... On the other hand reduced blood flow wouldn't actually weaken valve? If anyone's medically minded, feel free to give their opinion!

Wow, this thread has grown like 8 pages since I checked in yesterday! Yesterday and today were normal eating days so not much going on over here. I'm looking forward to my second fasting day of the week tomorrow, because then I get to weigh in on Friday :) I'm really curious to see if I'm still maintaining, have gained, or if I've possibly even loss anything

Someone a few pages back asked about seeing smaller measurements- I went from a size 14 jean to a size 8, following a variation of the 4:3 plan. This is from November 7th to now :) I really wish I had taken measurements before starting, because the difference between then and now are quite dramatic!

About feeling cold, some people might find ginger (e.g. in ginger tea) helps a bit. Rosemary is supposed to be good for circulation as well and Ginko Biloba, though I have not taken them in years.

I also find thermal underwear great, which I wear all winter, and I usually wear thick heavy wollen jumpers.

I am colder than average I think for years (I have poor circulation) and I haven't noticed any worsening of it since fasting, thankfully! I am in Ireland though and we have had a fairly mild winter this year.

Hello, I'm a newbie to this.

I started reading the web chat questions yesterday, and found this thread today, and its taken me all day to get through it :)

So I had my first fast today and its actually been ok, I have a little headache now, but I have just finished work.

I'm a bit concerned about the link to the milk thing earlier though. I had 510 calories today and 320 were from milk and yogurt. I can't bare black tea or coffee so I at need to try out some of the non dairy options suggested.

Marking place :)

Wow! So many great posts since I went to bed last night. I have an 8 hour time difference so it's 2pm as I'm posting this, so apologies in advance for multiple posts but there are so many great posts I want to reply to. Welcome to all the new posters!

Thanks for mentioning the Radio 4 prog BreadandWine. If anyone else wants to have a listen you can find it here. They start talking about BMI at 17:20.

They mention a proposed improvement by an Oxford mathematician to the current BMI formula. Essentially, it makes no difference to anyone who is 1.69 metres (5?6.½?) tall. Anyone taller than this would be pleased to find their BMI is lower with the new formula, but anyone shorter may be dismayed to see that the new formula makes their BMI higher.

Despite the fact I?m one whose BMI sees an increase I think I?ll adopt the new formula because it seems to address a little niggle I?ve had for a while with the current formula. Interestingly (to me anyway), the new formula also agrees with my self-imposed maximum acceptable upper weight limit of 10st, where the current one lets me up to 10st3ish.

If anyone?s interested in seeing the difference to their BMI but doesn?t know how to work it out I?d be happy to do it for you. (Numbers are my friends!)

For anyone who?s interested, the current (Adolphe Quetelet) BMI formula is:

BMI = weight(kg)/height(m)^2

The proposed new (Nick Trefethen) formula is:

BMI = 1.3*weight(kg)/height(m)^2.5

Geeks like me, see also the mathematician?s own explanation.

Incadreams, what a lovely supportive DH you have there saving you from cake! It tastes better on non-fast days when it?s allowed, IMO anyway. I nearly caved and gave up on my Dry January plan as yesterday was awful. Managed not to though. Score one for pig-headed stubbornness focussed determination.

anniewhit, the advice seems to be that you?re more likely to get the health benefits associated with fasting if you eat the calories in one or two meals. That said, I find that very hard so I do tend to spread the calories out through the day and I?m losing weight nicely.

IMO, if your main focus is weight loss then it doesn?t make the blindest bit of difference if you eat in one go or spread throughout the day. However, I am interested in the long term health benefits associated with fasting, so lately I have been trying to work my way up to incorporating some proper fasting periods on my fast days. Maybe you could do the same if you?re also hoping for the health benefits in addition to weight loss. Start off by spreading the calories but try to gradually go longer without eating.

encyclogirl, low carb and 5:2 can be combined. Dr MM does low carb on his fast days. I think if you?re trying to get the health benefits from 5:2 then you need to restrict protein intake on fast days too. Dr Mosley said about the fast days: ?As well as cutting calories you have to cut your protein intake. Not entirely - that would be a very bad idea. It's about sticking to recommended guidelines, something most of us fail to do.? But from what I understand, it is possible to low-carb without going over recommended protein intake levels, especially on fast days

Goofymum you?re doing really well, keep going. Don?t worry about yesterday, you still managed to eat less than your TDEE yesterday even after the cheese incident. Don?t let what the scales said put you off. I always weigh more at the end of the day, even on a fast day, because I drink loads of fluids. It?s great you?re focussing on the positives. Keep going!

Fubsy, a lot of people on here find like you that it?s easier to go longer without food, and that once you start eating their hunger is awakened. Maybe you?d find eating all your calories for dinner easier than eating a small lunch and a small dinner. Herbal and fruit tea fine to drink on fast days. Actually I?d recommend it as it?s a good idea to drink plenty of fluids on your fast days.

I agree with TalkinPeace2 that for many of us eating ?normally? is way over our TDEE and that?s precisely the reason we?re overweight in the first place. Personally I didn?t calorie count at all on eating days. I found my appetite self-regulated after a week or two of ADF and I naturally started eating much less on my eating days. That said, I?m in China at the moment where my three main weaknesses (wine, chocolate and Indian Takeaway) are in very short supply, so I do plan, when I get back to Britain, to track my intake on non-fast days for a week or so just so that I have a clear idea of how much I should be eating.

If you?re attracted to this WOE because you don?t have to count calories every day and would be put off by the idea of having to count calories on non-fast days, don?t worry. It may be that your appetite will self-regulate. If it doesn?t though, TalkinPeace2?s advice to track your non-fast day intake on MFP is a good idea, even if you just do it for a couple of weeks until you get used how much food is ?normal?.

Forgot to say that saw my gynae yesterday (apologies for tmi) but he didn't recognise me as I've lost so much weight! I was thrilled. Anyway got to have a procedure done next week & he asked if I'd be fine being nil by mouth from midnight the night before! Hah! Easy Peasy. (Ok I know won't be allowed anything to drink but still)! Though he did say may be better not to fast next week as generals make me feel really queasy & rough for a week or so.

Thanks for the link to new bmi ezzza mine is now higher than it was under previous formula but I suppose I better go with new one. it will just take me a little longer to get to normal category.

The new formula hasn't been adopted yet aftereights, just a proposal, so you don't have to go with it if you don't want to.

Thanks to KittyMcAllister for mentioning Dr MM's interview on Steve Wright in the Afternoon yesterday. I'm having a listen to it now. If anyone else wants to listen here's the link. The interview starts at the 1 hour 37 minute mark.

Thanks for the link Ezzza - I'm 5'6 so I don't really mind which one I use
I do have a question about both methods though - neither of them really takes body shape into account. I know people have previously discussed frame size, but I wonder about leg/body length too - I have very long legs for my height, so as a result my weight is less than you might expect, simply because legs don't weigh as much as trunk. Even at quite podgy round the middle my BMI doesn't look too bad.
DH on the other hand has quite short legs for his height and a long back, but this means his BMI is ridiculously high. yes, he is overweight, but not nearly as much as his BMI would lead you to believe. So neither of us really knows where we are! Anyone know if anyone has looked at this aspect, because I've never heard of anything? It drives DH round the bend, because every time he encounters a medical professional they just look at the numbers and go "tut, tut"

sarah I think any medical professional who looks at BMI and tuts at your dh without looking at him properly lacks the ability to think, and I would trust them too much. We all should know, esp the medical profession that BMI has its faults in terms of body shape and muscle mass and frame size - it's a very rough guide and should be used as such. I've read that some consider the healthy zone for woman to be too high and should be lowered and for men it should increased.

Well done Ezzza for answering all those late night questions. I agree with everything you said.

I'm sick with flu. So are DD1 and DD2 :( . Fasting today but as I have no appetite it will probably be the easiest one yet.

Of course *SarahWithAFringeOnTop, this is where BMI falls down. It's more of a guide and is certainly not perfect. It can't account for people who have different proportions to the assumed norm, such as those are heavier because of having an unusually high percentage of muscle, or as you mention, who have longer or shorter legs etc. It also can't flag the health risks to some skinny people who have a lot of fat stored around their internal organs that they don't know about. But I think in the absence of access to body fat percentage measuring equipment and other tests for these sorts of things it's a useful guide. So is the tape measure!

I'm having a couple of days break from alternate day fasting - have had a migraine everyday for past 11 days. I really don't think its the fasting as my brain is a known culprit for this sort of thing but thought a few days of regular eating may help things settle quicker.

I'm really liking the Hairy Dieters cookbook for lovely recipe ideas. Lots of savoury stews and food that can be eaten on 'normal' days as a healthy option.

Exactly right, Snowkey. As a measure of obesity, BMI is better than nothing but it's very crude. Last year I visited an endocrinologist (required access point for some blood tests). He and I conversed at some length about various topics. After that, after seeing me in summer weight clothes, he input my height and weight in the hospital system, which then spewed out my BMI. "Oh, you're underweight. You should gain at least 10 lb." It was the number on the screen and not my appearance that made my weight an issue.

Thanks for the links, Ezzza. The page with the math is interesting, especially the note that explains that "the inventor of the BMI formula himself suggested the exponent 2.5"

Sarah I took part in a huge population-based study last year about weight, diet & lifestyle and as part of the barrage of tests and scans they certainly looked at my skeletal structure and fat distribution. They've got a while left on the study I think but we may start seeing papers based on the findings soon! It's certainly an interesting question - I've always been a lot heavier than I look and I am longer in the body - I always thought it was my fat thighs to blame but maybe not...

Hi there lovely MNers. In a nutshell, having read Michael Mosleys chat yesterday, have decided to give the 5:2 diet a go. (lost about a stone on the Dukan last year but what a nightmare!!)

I only have about a stone to go and have ordered the book, but while waiting for it to arrive was hoping that someone can point me to info on how to start diet, what/when to eat etc... So much wonderful info on these threads, not sure where to start .

It is easy chasingtail decide which 2 days of the week you want to fast. On those days you have 500 cals on the other days you eat normally. You can do what you want with your 500 cals, nothing is forbidden. Most people find 2 small meals the best option, perhaps soup for lunch and a veg stew or chilli for dinner. All drinks, including milk in tea, should be counted in your 500 cals.

Once your body is used to this you can progress onto expanding your non food hours out, but get used to it first. Don't forget there are 9 other threads we have filled if you want more info, and a recipe thread with meals ideas, and a links and tips thread for important things we don't want to lose. All linked in the OP. Good luck