Help with finger placement on the violin

[maggiethecat]

DD is going through a patch of 'I'll never be any good at the violin'. For some reason she's struggling with stretching her second finger (eg playing d on the a string - stretched second finger and close third). I don't play an instrument but try to help support her as much as I can. I would not have picked up in practice of a piece that the note was not quite right bcos of finger placement, ie that it should have been higher sounding. Her teacher pointed it out.

Is there any resource that might help me to understand a bit better finger postion in relation to notes?

When I learned yonks ago, my teacher put little round stickers on the fingerboard to remind me where they needed to be

your dd does need to be able to hear when it's wrong though ... that should come with practice

"Is there any resource that might help me to understand a bit better finger postion in relation to notes?"

Violin lessons?

My DH is a guitar player and I've been trying to learn little bits. These stringed instruments are quite a physical exercise for your fingers, and the stretches and contortions you're asking of them do apparently just come with practice and time.

Agree stickers until they can hear/know automatically where to put fingers. Sounds better if they are too high rather than too low so encourage that. Do you have an (in tune) piano so she can tune against that ? Playing scales as warm up will also help - easier to hear where you are going wrong. Also play tunes she knows so she can hear where she is going wrong.

DD has stripes of tape on the fingerboard.

I am a beginner (learnt for 9 months) at the violin and dd1 is learning as well. dd1 is 6 and has stickers to help her finger placement. I find that playing a very simple tune such as 'Mary had a little lamb' or Twinkle, Twinkle little Star' helps with getting the fingers in the right place as you know the tune so well you can tell if the notes are right.

Also if she is having problems placing her 2nd/3rd fingers it may be because she if not bringing her hand/arm round enough. Look carefully at the position her teacher puts her in to play. It does feel uncomfortable to start until you get used to it.

Paisley, I feel as if I am having lessons and am a very poor student!

We are looking to get a piano. Her teacher asks her to differentiate tone and semitone on his piano and it's obvious that she's guessing.

Will encourage her to practise scales and to listen carefully to music she knows.

I wish I has a musical bone in my body!!

Practising scales and listening are really the only ways with an instrument like the violin - my DS's first teacher was utterly opposed to stickers to show where to put the fingers, on the basis that he'd met children who would claim the note "must be right" because their finger was on the sticker, no matter how horrible it sounded!

As far as reching the right position goes - it will get better with practice, but it's worth getting the teacher to go through it with you in detail just how she should be standing, holding the violin, reaching the strings, etc, so you are better able to help her between lessons. Again, when DS was starting, a parent had to be in the whole lesson every week for the first year, so that we knew just what they were doing. It was a steep learning curve as I'm totally unmusical, but it did mean I could say "No, he said like this" when DS misremembered.

misremembered!!!

I have grade 7 violin and totaly agree with AMumInScotland hand and body positioning is the key. (especialy never rest your left wrist on the neck of the violin - it's really tempting but completely messes up finger positioning and tuning for years to come, I know!!)

I've heard so much about this posture/hold business since joining the violin mum sorority. Interestingly she has a new teacher who is a stickler for violin hold (reminds her of the requisite 'hole' in her left palm) and 'floppy' bow hold. I realise that she does not like to be interrupted when playing to be corrected about technique but I expect this will decrease in time.

Hi I'm a professional violinist and teacher.

Sounds like you are doing a great job supporting your DD with her violin practice. It's amazing how many parents start their kids off on lessons and expect them to learn without any help at home, encouragement to practice etc.

As far as the second finger is concerned it's a common problem at the start.
Hand position is very important but listening is the key and that is something that will develop more as your child plays more and hears more music.

As for the stickers, I do use them to a certain level in my teaching just because it gives a visual idea of where the fingers go. Not all teachers use them though.

How old is your DD and has she done any exams yet?

Thanks Framey. It's such a roller coaster at the moment. I asked her recently if she'd like a break from violin for a bit (after struggling with getting her to practice) and she said no, it's just that it was getting harder for her (and I presume not as much fun).
She's 6 and her teacher says he'll enter her for grade 1 in the summer.

maggie are you sorted? I play violin anywhere they'll pay me in orchestras and shows all over the place - omg it's 20 years since I did grade 8 but I learned viola after that. Have you solved the tone and semitone issue in the OP (haven't read much of the rest of the thread, sorry) I learned finger placement with small pieces of sellotape on the fingerboard, but also learned to listen to tone and semitone intervals.

Giggle, to be honest. I know the teacher is going somewhere with this tone and semitone business but I havent quite worked it out! We had our first lesson this term yesterday and he played tone and semitone on his piano and asked her to distinguish them and she could by looking at his finger placement but I don't think she would have been able to do as well by just listening. I can't hear the difference altho he bangs on about how semitone is brighter sounding . I truly wish I could help her more.

The wide spaced 2nd finger should be positioned so that it is touching the correctly tuned 3rd finger. So the best way IMO (being an ex good player but not a teacher) would be to work downwards - on the A string for example, get the D in tune against the open string and then play the C sharp after squeezing the 2nd finger up against the tuned 3rd, then the 1st finger on the B - and then work up again. That way hopefully she'll get the sound and realise the difference if she gets it wrong going up again.

I don't think my teacher ever used stickers. There is no substitute for learning the feel and sound of the notes. I'd also be wary of using the piano too much. I appreciate the difference is subtle and it's probably more of an advanced consideration, but piano tuning is an approximation. It isn't accurate and if used too much then the tuning on the violin will never be quite right.

Final point and probably too obvious - the fiddle is definitely the right size for her isn't it? Not too big?

Gaelic, forgive me if I'm being dim but when you say get D in tune against open string - do you mean that she should play her A major scale and listen for the sound of D and then go back and play a c sharp making sure that the 2nd finger is squeezed up against the 3rd and listen for that sound?

right, Maggie - a good scam for you. I had a fab teacher who used to teach children intervals (this 'space between notes' / tone semitone thing) by using familiar tunes.
Twinkle twinkle little star is a 5th
away in a manger is a 4th iirc
It means you can hear the intervals correctly and I was always taught to 'hear' it in my head before playing it, then I would know if it was right or not. Something like this does come with time, and 6 is very very young.

I went googling - look here and scroll halfway down the page, there's a table of it all

The other thing I thought of is to get her to squeeze her first and second fingers together (index and middle) for semitone, or reach a bit further and squeeze the second and third together for the tone. As this varies from instrument to instrument, it takes a good couple of years to do it reliably. Try not to fret over it if tuning is a little bit unreliable at first, she'll get it.

Sorry, I realised afterwards that wasn't clear. I meant tune it against the open D string to get an octave IYSWIM. When the octave is really in tune you can hear it because the instrument resonates, but again that's probably a bit advanced - probably why I'm not a teacher lol.

Just a small thought as well, not wanting to be mean, but do you think she is musical? Does she enjoy it and have an aptitude for it? It's just that I don't remember having difficulty hearing these things - I just heard them. Is she doing it because she wants to or because they have to learn an instrument?

Oh sorry, I just realised the poor girl's only 6. I started violin at 8 (piano at 5). I'm being way too harsh.

But to clarify, yes, what you're saying is basically what I mean. Play up to D on the A string and then work backwards to get it right, then up again. Clear as mud?

Giggle, I looked at the link and thought 'What?!!' - I'm sure it will become clearer in the light of day . But I can understand why the poor child thinks the old days were fun!
But seriously, this has been helpful and I will mull over it.

Gaelic, her violin is the right size - her teacher checked again yesterday when dd told him she thought she had outgrown it. I must confess tho that she's often too relaxed with her left hand and sometimes her wrist rests against the violin neck.

Gaelic, I understand what you're saying now and will have a go with her.
It's difficult for me to say whether she's musical although her teacher seems generally pleased with her playing. I think she likes music generally and will do things like working out playing Ode to Joy (which she knows on violin) on the recorder although she doesnt do recorder lessons. So I think that's a good sign of listening.
I think it will all click, I suppose like reading, in the end. I guess I'm just trying to help ease her frustration.

good luck for tomorrow

Table on the page I linked to with blue "linkys" from it - basically tunes where the first two notes give you the interval. listen and hopefully it will help

Thanks again. I think I also might look around for a CD to help with basic aural training.

Maggie, she is doing really well!

She's only 6 and is going to do grade one in the summer!
Most of the kids I teach don't start violin until year 3 so she's already ahead of them.
I think these problems will sort themselves out with time and practice and more lessons.

it sounds like she has a fantastic teacher and with his guidence and your encouragement I'm sure she will progress well!