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Poolside chat - new year, new racing!

997 replies

Glittertwins · 07/01/2024 11:33

Hope this works, am rubbish at this!

OP posts:
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Teateaandmoretea · 08/03/2024 20:21

Eccle80 · 08/03/2024 11:58

I know there is always a balance with not being oversubscribed, but you need enough to make it competitive, our counties last year had very few younger swimmers, resulting in finals which weren’t even full, and it doesn’t look great.
We also had short course regionals doing a second wave of entries with a slight time relaxation last year too

Ours were the opposite, loads of younger ones but hardly any older ones.

There are a lot of random numbers in swimming I reckon. In the end club/ county/ regional/ national/ international level the only important thing is they enjoy it.

We’re West Midlands, dd1 has never got into regionals, she would have in the East Midlands but meh it’s just a swimming gala and so so many end up burning out. I don’t think making it all about time chasing is healthy tbh.

Teateaandmoretea · 08/03/2024 20:22

Our short course regionals were relaxed last year too. It clashed with half term 🤣🤷🏻‍♀️

Obviously too many people just aren’t committed and were on a beach somewhere.

Glittertwins · 08/03/2024 20:28

Yep, back on the nationals hamster wheel again!

OP posts:
Hellocatshome · 08/03/2024 20:35

Now DS has moved into the top squad he is attending loads of galas aimed at getting National times when realistically he hasn't got a hope. This weekend we are away from home for 2 nights for 2 x 50s and 2 x100s as he got bumped from the other events! If it wasn't for the fact that it would be a social disaster for him I would have much rather he stayed in the other squad.

Eccle80 · 08/03/2024 21:28

Teateaandmoretea · 08/03/2024 20:21

Ours were the opposite, loads of younger ones but hardly any older ones.

There are a lot of random numbers in swimming I reckon. In the end club/ county/ regional/ national/ international level the only important thing is they enjoy it.

We’re West Midlands, dd1 has never got into regionals, she would have in the East Midlands but meh it’s just a swimming gala and so so many end up burning out. I don’t think making it all about time chasing is healthy tbh.

We’re West Midlands too. I agree, I have come to the conclusion that the times are comparatively arbitrary, and the fluctuations between years mean that two swimmers with similar times in different years might not have the same experience of what they do or don’t qualify for. Equally two swimmers with similar times but one born in December and one the following January would have very different qualifying experiences, and it doesn’t make one better than the other. The constant focus on times and rankings can make things very difficult for them. The problem is though that coaches do seem to put a lot of value on qualifying for things.

The short course regionals I think was a combination of half term and a couple of big clubs deciding not to go.

Glittertwins · 09/03/2024 05:46

Hellocatshome · 08/03/2024 20:35

Now DS has moved into the top squad he is attending loads of galas aimed at getting National times when realistically he hasn't got a hope. This weekend we are away from home for 2 nights for 2 x 50s and 2 x100s as he got bumped from the other events! If it wasn't for the fact that it would be a social disaster for him I would have much rather he stayed in the other squad.

Are you being pressured into doing the national qualifiers? At least it's good LC race practice l.He won't be able to compete in 50 fly/back/breast at nationals until 16 and the free until 15 and only then if he gets the times/swims the corresponding 100m free.
The younger 100s entry is even worse as they can only qualify for the 100s via successful 200 participation.

OP posts:
Hellocatshome · 09/03/2024 05:54

Not pressured as such but our club has a policy that you enter all the target meets for your squad and this is a target meet. Entries closed before this year's criteria was announced hence the 50s. Our clubs National qualifier gala only has 50 Freestyle because we waited until after the announcement.

It will give him a chance to get more regional times but is a bit of a faff for approxi 3 minutes of racing.

Teateaandmoretea · 09/03/2024 08:54

Eccle80 · 08/03/2024 21:28

We’re West Midlands too. I agree, I have come to the conclusion that the times are comparatively arbitrary, and the fluctuations between years mean that two swimmers with similar times in different years might not have the same experience of what they do or don’t qualify for. Equally two swimmers with similar times but one born in December and one the following January would have very different qualifying experiences, and it doesn’t make one better than the other. The constant focus on times and rankings can make things very difficult for them. The problem is though that coaches do seem to put a lot of value on qualifying for things.

The short course regionals I think was a combination of half term and a couple of big clubs deciding not to go.

Agree re the coaches. I think it’s the culture within swimming that leads to some of the reports etc that are written about the sport. I think coaches also feel pressure that they will be seen as failures if they don’t have enough swimmers qualifying for x or y, when surely their job is to get the best out of individuals and you work with what you have.

For me it should be about enjoying the training, getting stronger, challenging yourself to do stuff out of comfort zone and enjoying team galas and open meets. Some swimmers will be faster than others, simple as that. Some will want to take it seriously and some will qualify for nationals or even get medals at the Olympics (edited, most get medals for something!).

But the culture also has a tendency to attract nutters, of both the coaching and parent variety. It also has this weird thing where some people think if they aren’t fast enough it isn’t ’worth It’. I’ve never heard of kids being pressured to give up football because they will never be good enough for the premier league 😂🤷🏻‍♀️. I find it odd, pure and simple.

Teateaandmoretea · 09/03/2024 09:14

Hellocatshome · 09/03/2024 05:54

Not pressured as such but our club has a policy that you enter all the target meets for your squad and this is a target meet. Entries closed before this year's criteria was announced hence the 50s. Our clubs National qualifier gala only has 50 Freestyle because we waited until after the announcement.

It will give him a chance to get more regional times but is a bit of a faff for approxi 3 minutes of racing.

So what happens if the parents can’t afford to go to lots of away meets?

Spendonsend · 09/03/2024 09:41

I've always liked swimming because you can find competitions at your level. Its not all counties and nationals. There are club galas. I also like the whold idea of its your own pb that matters. I love seeing a child come 'last' but grinning because its their best time.

Our club isnt very competitive though. We have two memberships. Ones called 'fitness' and ones is called 'competitive' although both cam compete, the training focus is different.

Hellocatshome · 09/03/2024 10:02

Teateaandmoretea · 09/03/2024 09:14

So what happens if the parents can’t afford to go to lots of away meets?

You would have to move into the recreational squad where you can still compete but pick and choose your galas. The only problem is the coaching in that squad is very basic and the swimmers are basically left to their own devices.

Teateaandmoretea · 09/03/2024 10:49

I must admit I find that quite shocking. I come possibly from a different smaller club world, nearer to Spendon’s I suspect.

Clubs should be encouraging people from different backgrounds imo.

SkankingWombat · 09/03/2024 12:26

Teateaandmoretea · 09/03/2024 08:54

Agree re the coaches. I think it’s the culture within swimming that leads to some of the reports etc that are written about the sport. I think coaches also feel pressure that they will be seen as failures if they don’t have enough swimmers qualifying for x or y, when surely their job is to get the best out of individuals and you work with what you have.

For me it should be about enjoying the training, getting stronger, challenging yourself to do stuff out of comfort zone and enjoying team galas and open meets. Some swimmers will be faster than others, simple as that. Some will want to take it seriously and some will qualify for nationals or even get medals at the Olympics (edited, most get medals for something!).

But the culture also has a tendency to attract nutters, of both the coaching and parent variety. It also has this weird thing where some people think if they aren’t fast enough it isn’t ’worth It’. I’ve never heard of kids being pressured to give up football because they will never be good enough for the premier league 😂🤷🏻‍♀️. I find it odd, pure and simple.

Edited

I think it's particularly difficult as, unlike football, the timed element gives a very stark comparison between swimmers. There is no subjectivity and the DCs always focus on it. I like our internal galas that award some points for position, but far more for PBs (a point for getting one, even if tiny, and then a point for every full second knocked off). It gives the slower swimmers a good chance of a gold and rewards personal progression. They are also 'age on the day' and held throughout the year, so everyone gets a chance of being older/the oldest in their category.
The age thing and how it affects qualifying sucks though (not that I can see any solution) - it can make a huge difference for the youngest swimmers, where even 6 months difference is a considerable %age of extra life, experience and training.

From another perspective, I think the other pressure on DCs for attaining times within our small club is that we have very limited pool time and space. Covid has meant we now have a lot of swimmers who have stayed with us and love the sport, but just aren't getting the (or any) times. In the past, some would have moved up to the top squads and some would have dropped out. They have stagnated in the middle squads and it is now preventing the younger swimmers from progressing as there isn't room for them to move into. For the younger ones to progress currently, they really do have to push for times to make them stand out and earn that one available space. Ideally we'd have more pool time/capacity to fit everyone who wants to continue to train whilst keeping space within the pathway for younger swimmers to come through. A recreational squad to move the aged-out DCs into would solve these issues, but I think the parents would be very resistant and I suspect getting the coaches to cover it would be a problem - we tend to only coach at sessions where our own DCs swim (albeit often not coaching our own DC's lane), and only one has a swimmer who would need to make the move.
DD1 should have moved up last September, but there just hasn't been the space. Only 2 DC have been able to move since June. DD is currently top of the list (I only know this because I coach), but there are another 7 who really need to move too. DD2 moved up to her new squad 2 weeks ago, despite 'passing' the previous one and waiting for a space since the beginning of November. Something needs to change though, or it will become a continued self-creating problem as the next age groups also stagnate.

Thankfully most at our club are lovely, but there is definitely the odd nutter! One set of parents, who were previously very chatty, now don't speak to me because their (older) DD moved up a squad and mine didn't 🤷🏼‍♀️ There is a huge superiority vibe going on, it's bizarre! They were most put out when I was given their DD's lane to coach last weekend 😂 There is another parent whose DD is the same age category and squad as DD1, and she treats me like 'the competition' - we're a team! DCs are good friends and I coach their lane.
Our coaches are all pretty balanced and reasonable, thankfully! So no complaints there! They are strict on and expect good attendance, attention and effort, but otherwise it's fairly relaxed as the belief is the times will come with these in place if the swimmer is capable: turn up, put your all into what your coach tells you, and you will improve. It must work somehow as we punch above our weight for the size of the club. I can imagine it can be harder to remain chilled once you're at a much higher level though 😬 (we only have a couple of national level swimmers)

Footballers aren't told to quit completely because they won't make the premier league, but they are definitely managed out or unsubtly directed to less competitive teams. At least we don't do this as a club, which keeps it pretty inclusive (hence the capacity issues!).

Glittertwins · 09/03/2024 13:04

We are a pretty competitive club but we do make sure we can do meets as a club where it is inclusive and affordable. We spent well over 4 figures last year on two sets of nationals and also taking time off work to do so. It's not cheap if you're then asked to pay weekends away for open meets too.

OP posts:
Teateaandmoretea · 09/03/2024 13:39

SkankingWombat · 09/03/2024 12:26

I think it's particularly difficult as, unlike football, the timed element gives a very stark comparison between swimmers. There is no subjectivity and the DCs always focus on it. I like our internal galas that award some points for position, but far more for PBs (a point for getting one, even if tiny, and then a point for every full second knocked off). It gives the slower swimmers a good chance of a gold and rewards personal progression. They are also 'age on the day' and held throughout the year, so everyone gets a chance of being older/the oldest in their category.
The age thing and how it affects qualifying sucks though (not that I can see any solution) - it can make a huge difference for the youngest swimmers, where even 6 months difference is a considerable %age of extra life, experience and training.

From another perspective, I think the other pressure on DCs for attaining times within our small club is that we have very limited pool time and space. Covid has meant we now have a lot of swimmers who have stayed with us and love the sport, but just aren't getting the (or any) times. In the past, some would have moved up to the top squads and some would have dropped out. They have stagnated in the middle squads and it is now preventing the younger swimmers from progressing as there isn't room for them to move into. For the younger ones to progress currently, they really do have to push for times to make them stand out and earn that one available space. Ideally we'd have more pool time/capacity to fit everyone who wants to continue to train whilst keeping space within the pathway for younger swimmers to come through. A recreational squad to move the aged-out DCs into would solve these issues, but I think the parents would be very resistant and I suspect getting the coaches to cover it would be a problem - we tend to only coach at sessions where our own DCs swim (albeit often not coaching our own DC's lane), and only one has a swimmer who would need to make the move.
DD1 should have moved up last September, but there just hasn't been the space. Only 2 DC have been able to move since June. DD is currently top of the list (I only know this because I coach), but there are another 7 who really need to move too. DD2 moved up to her new squad 2 weeks ago, despite 'passing' the previous one and waiting for a space since the beginning of November. Something needs to change though, or it will become a continued self-creating problem as the next age groups also stagnate.

Thankfully most at our club are lovely, but there is definitely the odd nutter! One set of parents, who were previously very chatty, now don't speak to me because their (older) DD moved up a squad and mine didn't 🤷🏼‍♀️ There is a huge superiority vibe going on, it's bizarre! They were most put out when I was given their DD's lane to coach last weekend 😂 There is another parent whose DD is the same age category and squad as DD1, and she treats me like 'the competition' - we're a team! DCs are good friends and I coach their lane.
Our coaches are all pretty balanced and reasonable, thankfully! So no complaints there! They are strict on and expect good attendance, attention and effort, but otherwise it's fairly relaxed as the belief is the times will come with these in place if the swimmer is capable: turn up, put your all into what your coach tells you, and you will improve. It must work somehow as we punch above our weight for the size of the club. I can imagine it can be harder to remain chilled once you're at a much higher level though 😬 (we only have a couple of national level swimmers)

Footballers aren't told to quit completely because they won't make the premier league, but they are definitely managed out or unsubtly directed to less competitive teams. At least we don't do this as a club, which keeps it pretty inclusive (hence the capacity issues!).

I would take the view if they aren’t getting any times that is a step past inclusivity if it is a competitive swimming club. If they are competing then that is trickier. We have a non-competitive squad that they get moved to if they don’t compete but in the absence of that I don’t think it’s wrong to tell them to leave. The problem is that the longer it goes on the more you get and the culture is more entrenched. We had too many in our middle squads after Covid it wasn’t good - I even heard parents even almost sneering at actual competitions!

it’d be like being in a football club and never turning up for a game…

I agree the times make it stark. But adults should be managing that and making it as positive as possible. The points in your clubs internal galas sound great.

Teateaandmoretea · 09/03/2024 13:41

There is another parent whose DD is the same age category and squad as DD1, and she treats me like 'the competition' - we're a team! DCs are good friends and I coach their lane.

We’ve all got those 😂😂

ReluctantSwimMum · 09/03/2024 13:58

Interesting to read your experiences above. While my child age 11 is now in the competition squad rather than younger squad, I don't get the sense there is pressure or expectations or even competitiveness as such. They are just looking to improve their own times and attend galas when they can (we pick the events). Hope that doesn't change. Or maybe it becomes more pressured as they get older and the numbers thin out?

itsgettingweird · 09/03/2024 15:28

We've had experience of both types of club.

Ds started in a small club with 1 stream where juniors got held up by older swimmers on sessional swims being in the top squad.

He decided himself to move after covid when pool time just didn't return. He loves swimming and wanted to see what he could achieve.

He came late to swimming anyway and started competitive swimming at 12. He had an unknown issue with his legs at that point which did affect him (still does) and didn't get diagnosed until he was 15 and then he was classified at 17.

He moved to a particular coach who he wanted to train with and loves all the coaches in his current club. It's a big city club with lots of squads and streams which means you can train whatever you want for your ability. Our top 2 streams are competitive and performance. Even the competitive stream is county and regional swimmers and performance is regional and then national qualifiers also as well as those who have potential to make nationals in that year.

We also have sprint and distance programmes as well as specific sets for swimmers based on their stroke. Ds loves the set up and seems to do ok and is making progress.

He's 19 now and has the option to move to a masters set up if he wanted but he's happy swimming in the national squad currently and there's quite a few swimmers that are older (general age is 15-20).

From what I've witnessed there is a point some swimmers need to move from a smaller club to a bigger club if they want to swim above county level at youth age.

With regards competitive parents. I think you see that at any sports club anywhere. Our performance and competitive parents are generally ok. It's the parents of the younger swimmers who seem to be a nightmare 🫣🤣🤷‍♀️

Hellocatshome · 09/03/2024 15:53

With regards competitive parents. I think you see that at any sports club anywhere. Our performance and competitive parents are generally ok. It's the parents of the younger swimmers who seem to be a nightmare 🫣🤣🤷‍♀️

100% this in our club. By the time you get to the top squads the parents realise that performances come and go with growth spurts, puberty etc etc. The junior parents are fierce and its not unknown for them to say "make sure you beat x in this race" which obviously then doesn't help the competitiveness amongst the kids.

Teateaandmoretea · 09/03/2024 16:04

ReluctantSwimMum · 09/03/2024 13:58

Interesting to read your experiences above. While my child age 11 is now in the competition squad rather than younger squad, I don't get the sense there is pressure or expectations or even competitiveness as such. They are just looking to improve their own times and attend galas when they can (we pick the events). Hope that doesn't change. Or maybe it becomes more pressured as they get older and the numbers thin out?

It really does depend on the club and the attitude of the swimmer/ parents I think.

That can absolutely be the case at our club right up the squads if you want it to be.

But of course regionals and nationals are what some swimmers achieve and are a big success to be massively proud of.

Teateaandmoretea · 09/03/2024 16:06

Hellocatshome · 09/03/2024 15:53

With regards competitive parents. I think you see that at any sports club anywhere. Our performance and competitive parents are generally ok. It's the parents of the younger swimmers who seem to be a nightmare 🫣🤣🤷‍♀️

100% this in our club. By the time you get to the top squads the parents realise that performances come and go with growth spurts, puberty etc etc. The junior parents are fierce and its not unknown for them to say "make sure you beat x in this race" which obviously then doesn't help the competitiveness amongst the kids.

To be fair though dd2 swims much faster when she’s against her mates 😂😂

Hellocatshome · 09/03/2024 16:08

Teateaandmoretea · 09/03/2024 16:06

To be fair though dd2 swims much faster when she’s against her mates 😂😂

Which is fine, I think lots of kids do. But parents telling kids "make sure you beat so and so" or being angry cos their cjild got beaten by their friend is not healthy.

Teateaandmoretea · 09/03/2024 16:09

Totally agree.

itsgettingweird · 09/03/2024 16:50

Think I'd be on a hiding to nothing telling ds to beat other kids - he's the only para swimmer so has no chance 🫣🤣

Not that I would anyway!!!

I just tell him to have fun and keep going all the time he wants to keep going and when he's had enough that's fine too 🤷‍♀️

SkankingWombat · 09/03/2024 18:19

Teateaandmoretea the older DCs stuck in the middle squads do compete at open meets and internal galas, they just aren't quick enough to get county times and obviously every year the times for their new age band get tougher to achieve and even more out of reach for them. I suspect the senior coaches are reluctant in part to tell them it's the end of the road as most are siblings of swimmers they want to keep, but also because we're a friendly bunch and don't want to be that kind of club. It feels like it's at a bit of a tipping point at the moment though, as everything really has totally jammed up in the last 9 months. I think it was hoped the older slower swimmers would just get frustrated at the lack of progression and leave without needing to have awkward conversations, but it isn't happening and I don't think it will! (I am far too lowly to have any influence)

I have thought about moving clubs, but then I see how many early mornings the nearby clubs do and quickly change my mind 😂 I am not a morning person, and neither are DDs - the mostly evening training suits us. I'm willing to stick it out for a bit longer, but ultimately we'll be forced to move if it doesn't improve soon. The head coach, who isn't involved in the younger DCs' training, added DD1 to his 'future stars' list after seeing her at the most recent gala, so that should see her prioritised further. These are the only DCs who actively have room found for, regardless of lack of space (I'm selfishly very relieved).

I'm looking forward to the future years of more chilled parents! From what age are we talking...? 😬

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