Invisible kid in choir

[Angelkid]

Hello all,
My DD is ASD with highly gifted in music. She is in year 5 and has already prepared 2 instruments grade 5 exams and singing grade 5 exam. Her previous exams were all distinctions and one merit. The problem is, she is not an out going kid and is a typical ASD child. Despite her academic and music achievements, she suffers from lack of social skills, self confidence and a very emotional sensitive child.
She has joined the non school cathedral choir since year 2. It is only a small choir group but she has still committed to that at least 3 rehearsals and evensong a week. Even though her musical achievements are well ahead than other choristers in the junior choir and also one of the longest serving members there. She was told she and the other girl would be leading choristers on next term few weeks ago. Then, out of the blue, it turns out the music director picked another less talented and shorter serving member as that role. There was no open audition to compete the roles. So, my DD is very fed up and disappointed. She doesn't understand why it happened. It also happened to the boys chorister too, they picked someone whose parents have good relationships with them too.
The only reason my DD wanted to stay because she simply loves music, and there was some hope she could be promoting to high rank in the choir.
Sadly, she has been invisible since day 1. She got very limited attention from the 'teachers' there. They didn't speak to my DD much or not even say bye to her at the end of each rehearsal, never mind talking to me but other kids and parents.
I do not know what has gone wrong there, except I don't go to their evensong and haven't made donations very often. My DD is only quiet and not disruptive kid there. And she has achieved their expectations too.
Now, we are seriously considering stop going to the choir. However, my DD is very confused. Firstly, she is very fed up with these treatments from the adults, secondly, there are 2 girls in the group who are friendly to her. Also, it is the only cathedral choir, so if she quits, there is no other places to join.
She has been crying all day today because there was another bad thing been happened today, plus the 'unsuccessful ' leading chorister role. So, a very distressed kid and a furious mum here.
Any thoughts?
Thank you.

I would find another choir, one not part of the school (assuming that this one is). Hopefully you find one with a better teacher. DD can still be part of this choir if it’s a school one, don’t put as much time into it the other would be her main choir and priority with practice dates.
I had a similar issue with my DD, the teacher played favourites, though my DD wasn’t the top student she didn’t get to audition for parts the others got to. She stopped going the next year.

She was told she and the other girl would be leading choristers on next term few weeks ago. Then, out of the blue, it turns out the music director picked another less talented and shorter serving member as that role. There was no open audition to compete the roles. So, my DD is very fed up and disappointed. She doesn't understand why it happened. It also happened to the boys chorister too, they picked someone whose parents have good relationships with them too.

I agree with a pp about finding somewhere else. I've seen this scenario too often, the child with the potential often deteriorates or loses confidence, which is unsurprising.

One parent sent the child in with presents for the adults at every possible opportunity. Just one example.

That sounds hard, Angelkid. Agree with her finding another choir that might make her feel more confident. How about this https://www.nycgb.org.uk (she's the right age to audition) or some choral courses in the holidays, where she can make friends and find her voice more.

My dd loves choral holiday courses - fab place to make friends...

Thank you for all reply. I have looked into other choirs and national childrens choirs too. The national childrens choir is too far away from where we live. The one my DD goes is the only Cathedral choir in city.
Also, my child is a single child and there is no one, (no cousins or school friends) would join with her. She has ASD, and with poor social skills and anxiety. This is why I said, she has 2 girls who are very friendly with her after 4 years in the choir. It will also upset if she needs to move away from them. She is upset because the choir has originally promised something in front of the whole choir few weeks earlier, but it didn't turn out as expected. As many people might know it can hit very hard on ASD kids in this circumstances.
There are always favouritism and over looked many 'quiet kids' or simply because you don't have 'a good relationship ' with the settings. However, my DD self-confidence has completely shattered and feels ashamed after this, plus there was another very unhappy event happened at school on the same day.
I am going to ask for school SEN team and hoping they can open some counselling, even it is nearly end of term now.
There is not much help around uk for twice -exceptional kids, (Autism and gifted at the same time).
I am also dreading what will happen when she goes to teenage years!!

That sounds very sad @Angelkid. The national choirs are all residentials - they go away for them so it doesn't really matter where you live as everyone has to travel. It may not suit her though if she doesn't cope well away from home.

@minisnowballs I know she won't cope on her own, so it was why we didn't send her to a large cathedral chorister school in another nearby city on year 3, even though they could have offered large % of scholarships/ bursary.

If the choir leaders openly promised her then took it away, it sounds like it may be time for you to pull them aside at the end of the rehearsal and/or ask for a phone call to find out what's going on. In year 5 she's young enough to still need you to advocate for her. Tell them she's upset, find out what went wrong. It's thoroughly bad practice to promise a child something then take it away, she's very reasonable to be upset, any child would be.

I would have thought in any cathedral choir, year 5 would be also quite young for leadership roles, however musically talented, so it may be a case of they hadn't realised how young she was when they initially said because of her joining so young, and she will get her turn in due course, or some other such misunderstanding.

In a small group, it's unlikely to go unnoticed that she's able. Talk to them. They may be more aware than you realise. Fingers crossed.

Music is a great place for 2E kids. There are lots of 'quirky' kids involved, to varying degrees. I hope you can work it out.

I agree that at that age, the parents are right to be involved. A polite email to the choir director is in order. "DD believed that she was to be promoted to leading chorister, but she has obviously misunderstood something! Could you please let me know how she could try for her promotion, as the choir means a lot to her and she would love to see some signs of progress? Thank you so much!"

I also agree with PP that Y5 is young in cathedral terms. My DS didn't get his Leading Chorister position until he was in Y8.

@SertralineAndTherapy @thirdfiddle
The cathedral my child goes to, they separate to girls junior and senior choirs, also boys only choir. Therefore, she was originally told in front of all kids on June, she and other girl who is currently year 6 will be promoted. It means when my DD goes to year 6 and the other girls in year 7. Both of them joined at around same time as probationers and was also promoted as full chorister at the same time. Then, they were both told two of them will be promoted. To cut it short, the other parents asked me that if my child has told me her DD and mine will be promoted on September together. Because their music director has definitely said that in front of other people. Then, my DD told me that the music director said it will be other girl promoted to that role. It all happened in the space of 3- 4 weeks.
So, it is the main point we feel very fed up and upset about.

Just come across this thread as my son is going through a similar thing (recently posted here https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/teenagers/4936197-son-feeling-rejected?reply=130495093). What was the eventual outcome? Did she continue in the choir? So hard to see your children discovering how bruising life can be :-(

As the mum of an older chorister can I suggest reaching out to the choir leader to discuss the issues. They might not realise how much she is struggling, may will be upset and make some changes. I have always found our leaders to be receptive, caring, helpful and mindful of safeguarding type issues. Obviously this won't necessarily be the case here but got to be worth a try. I really hope that you can resolve things as this is obviously so very important to your DD and choral singing is a wonderful thing. Sending you both all the very best.

I would speak to the organisers in this situation. It would be sad for her to quit something she's good at and enjoys.
It may be that they Don't realise she's upset.

I spoke to my DDs dance teacher when she was a similar age. Dd was fed up of being lowest in the pecking order, in fact she did quit anyway, she was fed up with it by then , but those in charge should be aware.

Hello everyone, my DD still sings in the choir. However, she has decided if she hasn't get promoted on next September, then, she will stop going. Mind you, she is only 10 years old, she can feel she got 'overlooked ' by the people there.
Having said that, the choir leader didn't promote anybody as leading chorister (yet!). As the director initially said openly, my DD and the other girl would be promoted to be leading choristers.
By the way, I have spoken to the director on the 1-1 'parents evening' about 2 months ago, I have said to him, my DD is looking forward to become head chorister one day, also I have dropped him a hint about the leading chorister role. Therefore, he started to say thank you and bye at the door to my daughter after rehearsal since then.
I don't understand why they couldn't just pick the best one by open audition???
It is only favouritism there.
My DD is looking for others options instead of cathedral choir. She might try musical theatre next year.

Oh wow! Choir director learns manners and says thank you!

It's an opportunity for you to teach her a few things. The key one: stay if you love singing in the choir. Don't stay in the hope you will get noticed. You might never get noticed, but if you love being part of the choral group, do it for its own sake and make your own pleasure the key reason for staying.

Learn that life is unfair. Some people get picked out of nepotism or for other reasons. Life will always be unfair. She can control how she deals with this, whether she broods on it or shrugs her shoulders and makes the best of what she can or takes actions to be in a fairer group. She could, for example, ask a small number of fellow choristers she gets on with if they fancy creating a breakaway group to sing madrigals or carols or similar, and put on a small informal concert and invite the choir master.

Maybe gently learn the art of self promotion. DS (also ASD and very musical) was part of a music group and felt constantly overlooked. It turned out he missed literally dozens of social cues. he was short of friends at the time but didn;t realise that a lovely boy inviting him to join a breakaway band and hanging around afterwards to see if DS wanted to go for a coffee were overtures of friendship. (DS didn't like coffee at the time so always said no thebn came home and felt lonely!)

Teach her some social skills - always make eye contact with a smile and say hello and goodbye to the choir leader and the practise pianist. Occasionally ask a (genuine/relevant) question, to become visible. Only occasionally. Don't pester. Gradually, she;ll collect the social skills needed to make yourself visible in a positive way when you want to get noticed.

@TotalOverhaul that's amazing advice - for anyone, on anything. Think I would have really struggled to put it into practice at ten, but if@Angelkid's daughter can she'll be a force to be reckoned with as she gets older!

@TotalOverhaul thank you for your kind words. Yes, my DD is ASD and she always polite and has good eye contact with people, also made a few friends in choir too.
Having said that, I feel there are lot of competition between the choristers too. Yes, they can be very friendly and play together most of the time. Then, the next minute they can be very jealous, especially the girls. Plus, the parents.......I think they are the worst. On the other hand, I don't really have time to 'socialise ' in their group. But I heard of a parent who offered 'donation' and got some advantage!!
The majority of these kids are from local private schools(my DD too), so you can imagine the competitiveness are so embedded already!!! I have chatted to another parent at pick up time on the other day, I mentioned my DD is to busy to keep up all the rehearsals there, and at the edge of giving up. I felt she was more than happy because her DD has one less competitor!!! Then, she told me how unfair of promoting kids and said how long her DD has been there....
I guess these kinds of gossip and jealousy are always around in any kids groups. However, the most upsetting is lack of the transparency and leader always plays favouritism. They have lost a lot of choristers in the recent years but they have never learnt!!! By the way, my DD is 2nd longest serving junior choir there.
Yes, we are looking into joining other music groups, however some groups are just like childcare groups. I think it is why the cathedral choirs believe they are so superior.
My DD is still hoping she will be promoted in the future. However, I play it down and told her she might be too young for the position.

What's more important to you/her, her socialising or her musical progression? If you can honestly answer that one then you will know what to do.

@SuperBored good question. I think, for my DD is a bit of both. If she is no longer happy there, then it will be the time to quit.

@Angelkid I'm hoping it's working out well for your dd and she is still happily singing?