Autumn 22 music thread

[thirdfiddle]

Hi all - I thought it was a while since we've had a new thread so how about one for the new school year? Would be lovely to pick up some new families too, all welcome at any stage of music learning from out of tune singing 2 yr olds to music college aspirants.

Is it nearly spring yet? I mean, I know it’s still (post-Christmas) January, but a spring music thread - like the first glimpse of an early daffodil - might put an, um, spring in the step

Still mostly lurking here (because it’s such a pleasant thread upon which to lurk) while also awaiting the result of an early December flute exam. Nothing yet from the school - hopefully no news is good news, or at least not bad news.

Also, is it just me, or is helping a DC take first steps with cello much harder than same for flute? It feels like there’s so much more happening all at once with a stringed instrument. Of course, this may be partly an issue of perception, because I’ve become more musically aware since 2018 and no longer benefit from the same blissful ignorance…

Happy new year, all!

Happy new year! @OneLovelySister. We have a cello in the house too and yes it does seem tricky after another instrument. DD's first instrument is piano and she finds the cello really hard even at g5 level now. Frustrating is how she describes it as an instrument.

When it's good it's so beautiful though - it's worth the dodgy intonation and the scratchy bowing to get there!

Can I share a vague boast? My child (first year conservatoire) recorded several parts (all on the same instrument) for something that has had 4.5 million views on YouTube in the last 3 days.
He won’t be credited on it as such but it’ll be on his cv.

HNY everyone, and that's very exciting @Siriusmuggle . @OneLovelySister I have a child who plays both - my observation is that flute is easy to start with - up to about grade 6, and cello is harder up to about grade 4. Then they diverge - cello you've kind of learned a lot of it, and flute you've got many more techniques to learn and it is suddenly very high and often quite unpleasant.

So overall it evens out a bit. Or maybe that's just dd..who also frequently informs me that bassoon is 'incredibly easy' even though I think it looks very hard, so perhaps it just depends on the child. Hope the exam result is swift and fabulous.

Hello @OneLovelySister my son plays flute too but yet to sit for an exam. What grade did ur DC do?

Happy new year all! Agree onelovelysister it's time for a spring thread - anyone want to start one? I'm also being a bit lurky these days. Small (not so small) musicians are bumbling along nicely but as they've vetoed exams at the moment it's being pleasantly uneventful.
Siriusmuggle that is seriously cool!

Re relative difficulty, used to be ww and brass exams only started at G3 or something. DS's brass quickly overtook his piano with a 3 years start. I think early stages are less complicated. On the other hand playing in orchestras is harder - far fewer places per instrument and you're generally playing on your own and being heard.

I think with flute that its really hard at first just to get any sound out - then once you get past that point there's a bit of rapid improvement whilst they learn all the different notes, then it starts to get harder again re phrasing, tonguing, vibrato etc plus just the physical effort of playing so many notes! On strings they can obviously make a sound straight away though its often not v nice to listen to, but getting that to an in tune note that sounds nice has a lot of components.

Both of mine started on piano - DS did piano from year 1 and picked up flute in year 3. He's now in year 7 and doing grade 6 on both at the moment and so have ended up converging, though there was a point where flute was his preference - he'd probably say it was his main instrument.

DD started piano in reception and is now in year 5 - she's mostly playing pieces around grade 7/8 and will sit grade 7 once she's done grade 5 theory as her teacher doesn't want her to go straight to grade 8 as her first exam with him. She picked up violin in lockdown having lessons with a friend on an ad hoc basis over zoom. She's since had face to face lessons for around 18m and is approx grade 5 standard on violin. I think that second instruments often progress quicker -partly because they can already read music, count etc but then there are definitely plateaus at different points. There are also still points where the violin is very 'not lovely' to listen to - but also times where it is, so I'd say overall a couple of years into a second instrument it all starts to sound much nicer!

@northerngoldilocks that's super interesting. My daughter plays the piano and her school does strings for everyone in group lessons from next year. Based on how she's progressing currently she'll have just finished her grade 2 in piano when she starts either violin or cello. She reads base clef fairly well (better than treble for some reason) so I was wondering if there would be any benefit. What do you think the right point is to start a second instrument.

Not sure there's a right point to start a second instrument. I wanted mine to be a bit more secure on their first before picking up another - so didn't want them starting 2 at the same time, but DS was just doing grade 1 when he started flute. Basically if they're keen to learn something then that's probably the right time. As they progress there are challenges about getting enough time for practice but at the beginning its not an issue.

We had about 2-3 yrs delay between instruments partly because their different instruments had different natural starting ages. And wanted to get one settled into a good practice routine first then see if they really had appetite for doing more. Plus with piano and strings it can confuse them initially because on piano thumb is 1 and on strings index finger is 1.
I do know some very keen people who have started two at once (piano + 1) and it still seems to help as time on one still reinforces learning for the other. The one that practises neither, not so much...
Around grade 2 sounds like nicely established so I imagine it'll help a lot. Just hope the group lessons aren't frustratingly slow!

Thanks that's helpful. We don't have a choice about starting next year. The entire school does mandatory group lessons twice a week in either violin or cello all paid for by the school including the instrument. I was thinking we might do a weekly private lesson as well so I can help more / get feedback. Also, I was thinking three times a week might mean she doesn't need to squeeze in quite as much practice. I think they do do the small group lessons by ability (I think there are about 5 in each group) after assessing the kids. For instance, I know some kids having been playing the violin for years so will almost certainly not be in the same sessions as beginners.

Wow, that's really impressive from school MomfromSE. Is it a private school? Even then impressive commitment to music. How long do they do it for in school? Could you sign up for private lessons after the school ones finish so you use the group lessons to get her started? I can't really see how it would work well in parallel; already established players is a bit different, they could just use the group to play some duets or something rather than actual teaching.

Yes its a private school but even for a private school, it's unusual. The string scheme lasts for two years and then everyone has the option after that to do a wind instrument again paid for by the school. Its a very musical school. You can also pay for individual lessons during school hours in a wide variety of instruments which is more typical but the small group lessons for the strings and wind schemes are part of the fees.

@thirdfiddle do you mean you think having a private tutor in parallel with the group lessons would be too chaotic? I was planning to start her on the cello over the summer to see if she really liked it (she could also do the violin) before she picked it at school and then carry on that way.

Interesting discussion about when to start a second instrument. I started piano aged 7 and clarinet aged 13 but took my grade 6 in both in the same year so progress was much quicker on my second instrument.

I'd agree @MomFromSE re having private lessons on top of beginner group lessons being possibly a bit tricky. When you're just starting out - especially on strings teachers have different views on which bits to teach first etc. Maybe consider letting her do the school lessons and see if she likes it - if she's enjoying it but finding the pace too slow look into adding on private lessons at that point, or preferably when the group lessons have finished. I know that a lot of teachers won't teach kids who are being taught elsewhere anyway. If there is a chance to try woodwind the year after would it make sense to see which she prefers? Or has she stated a preference already?

My son picked flute from the options available at his primary school so we started down that route, whereas my daughter was adamant for a while that she wanted to play violin and I was avoiding it - then a neighbour gave us a hand me down 1/2 size violin and our friend offered to give her some lessons to start her off, and at that point it became harder to say no!

Would the private lessons be at school with the same teacher that runs the groups? If so you could ask to have a chat with him/her about how best to fit things together. They may think two lessons a week is plenty anyway!

As northern says there are some quite major variations from teacher to teacher when they start out so two different teachers might be telling her to do opposite things. So in that case it might be better to wait until basics are covered then diverge if she's not finding the school group enough.

Is cello something she thinks she might like long term? If there's something else she has an eye on you could always do a completely different instrument privately and just coast the in school one.

Thinking about it DD has also caught up on her second instrument (piano) but that might be because she likes it best and practises more. My piano never remotely caught up with my violin. Reading two lines of music is too much for me 😅

Thanks everyone for the insights on first/second instruments and strings/other instruments. I should probably have explained that I’m comparing DD starting flute in spring 2018 with DS starting cello in spring 2022, not one child playing two instruments!

Poor DS, then a little chap of 6.5yo, had actually started trombone at school in autumn 2020, gamely continuing via Zoom January - March 2021 during the second lockdown, and face-to-face for the rest of the school year. However, after one lesson at the beginning of autumn term 2021, the headteacher picked a fight with the long-standing peripatetic brass teacher (and his wife, who’d taught DD flute until she moved up to secondary, and I think also the violin teacher) over room hire charges and that was that, no more trombone at school. It was all very odd and very unfair on all the DC preparing for spring exams. One had the distinct impression that the stress of the pandemic had left the headteacher rather tired and emotional; it wasn’t entirely surprising that he retired this Christmas!

So, yes, cello at school for DS now. I think he’d like to add trombone back at some point but he’s very enthusiastic about cello and likes the teacher. And he’s keeping it bass clef, which is handy.

Still no news on DD’s G5 flute result. I suspect she may be thinking of giving up because of the theory requirement to progress to G6 and because, as a child who works hard but isn’t especially musically gifted, she has other priorities. It would be a pity, not least because she enjoys ensemble playing, but we shall see.

Thanks all. She likes cello but she's never played it so its hard to say. I'd like her to try it before committing to it over the violin for 2 years. There are quite a few kids that already study string (usually violin) at the school before the group lessons begin so I think the school may be used to this but I'll ask some of the other parents who I know have done this. There kids were more experienced.

I was thinking private lesson outside of school on the weekend started this summer and carrying on if she likes it.

@OneLovelySister does she need to give up - or could she just stop the focus on exams and just learn so that she improves for ensemble playing? If the theory is going to be a stumbling block there is always Trinity if she needs exams to encourage her to make progress? This obviously doesn't fix the time availability point, but if she enjoys playing its a shame to stop. Grade 5 is a reasonable level for playing in ensembles. All the ones we've looked at look for playing level rather than actual grades taken too so if progressing standard wise but not taking exams its not an issue.

Re the exam results, ABRSM generally return them quickly but if they're done through school it then seems to take a long time for results to be passed out - i imagine as there has to be lots of checking that the correct result is going to the right child!

MomFromSE
I guess talking to people and explaining the situation is probably the way to go. It's an unusual situation, in school is usually so little as not to really count either way but two small group lessons a week is a lot! I think probably just as important to have a good listen to some violin and cello and see what she thinks from that. I think it's fair to say the beginner steps aren't typical of the playing experience anyway.

And agreeing with northern (again, this is becoming a habit!) re not needing to carry on exams, my two have both done pretty much exactly that, both did g5 on their orchestral instruments before putting exams on pause. They're still making progress and enjoying their ensembles.

Sorry - have skim-read rather but wanted to say:

Dd started cello in a small group lesson at school in Y4 - there was a choice of 6 instruments and they had one music lesson a week in the timetable on their chosen instrument. In the third term of the year dd also started individual lessons at school with the same teacher because she loved it and knew she wanted to continue. He just sourced pieces with second lines or extra twiddly bits (technical term there!) so she could play along in the group lessons but still be challenged. She didn't find it confusing and if anything it really helped her confidence.

She doesn't do exams on her cello either at the moment. She enjoys playing mostly in ensembles so she learns repertoire and learns technical skills to aid her orchestral and chamber playing. This keeps the pressure off and the playing fun which is (in my opinion) the most important thing - particularly if your dc is not intending a musical career.

Phew! Long post!

We have a mass of concerts coming up - dd playing in a strings concert (twice), a chamber concert (two different groups) and an informal concert this half term!

Hope everyone else's dcs happy to be back into their music.
@OneLovelySister - hope your dc gets their flute results soon.

HNY music people!

DS has yet to go back to school, lucky. swine, so is having a well-deserved rest after his Christmas singing fest. Six Once in Royal solos! He got spotted in the street the other day too, following his telly stardom. Which was fun.

I have a question. His piano teacher is entering him into grade 8 this term, but the performance one, rather than the practical. The snob in me feels iit's inferior, and he'd be better off doing the practical, as the inclusion of scales and aural tests gives it more status. I could be wrong, however! The teacher is excellent, and seems to know his stuff... Any views?

Do you know why they've selected the performance grade @herbaceous ? Is it the date flexibility?