Could anyone musical explain this about transposing instruments please?

[zasknbg]

I have got very confused! I help my DC with their music by playing along on the piano. Not an accompaniment, I just am trying to play their line of music at the same pitch to help them stay in time and get the correct notes.

So: E flat alto saxophone reading treble clef plays a C as written in saxophone music. If you want to play the same note on the piano, you play the E flat that is lower than the C. I get this, I hope!

But: E flat tuba reading bass clef plays a C as written in tuba music. The note that matches this on the piano appears to be the F that is lower than the C written in the music. (I am not sure if this is correct)

Could anyone help me, if both instruments are in E flat and they both play a C (albeit from different clefs), why the piano must play E flat to match the saxophone and F to match the tuba?

Thanks for any help!

Is the Tuba in tune? Although I'd expect it to be flat rather than sharp...

Does the music have a piano part too - this might well have be melody at pitch or echo/repeat the melody in the piano part.

Hopefully a brass player will be along with a better explanation!

Yes, I will inspect the piano part now, didn't think of that!

Oh no! the piano part is for Bb brass! So that won't tell me. Oops!

tub/french horn will (usually) be noted in f.
can be any notation btw but the most common is f. the brain gymnastics french horn players do are amazing.

the e will refer to the base note of the instrument, not the notation of the music.

Right I shall think about that and see if I can also do the brain gymnastics, thank you! What exactly does "noted in F mean", does it just mean that it is written such that when you play a C, it sounds like an F? The tuba C definitely sounds like a piano F.

I thought tuba parts were usually written in concert pitch? So if child plays a written C it should sound a C but unlike other brass instruments they would put some fingers down to play it. The instrument is in E-flat means that if they don't use any valves they can get the E-flat harmonic series (Eflat, Bflat, Eflat, G, Bflat ...).
I can't work out how a C would become an F though so bit puzzled.

Ah ignore me someone who actually knows what they're talking about got there first.

thirdfiddle do you think that the tuba music for an orchestra is written differently to the tuba music that someone might play for eg an ABRSM exam? I might have heard this and forgotten.

The open note/s with no fingering are coming out as Eb/Bb

I'm looking at an ABRSM grade 1 piece and a grade 3 piece, both for Eb tuba.

the piano part should always be in c.

traditionally trumpet and horn were always playing c notation but used one instrument or extension to match the rest of the orchestras.

I think tuba plays 'as is'

The piano part that comes with music books should not need to be transposed because it has been done by the publisher,

(Thankfully I have string players and an oboe)

Orchestra tuba plays as is. Brass band tuba will be in Eb or Bb

If they in Eb you will play a minor third up. If Bb,move up a tone (i think..its been a while)

Stevie, wouldn't brass band tuba be notated in treble clef? So I think we can rule that one out.

It certainly sounds like your tuba player is reading in F. Not a brass player so I will defer to those in the know as to how common that is.

What exactly does "noted in F mean", does it just mean that it is written such that when you play a C, it sounds like an F?
Yes exactly that.

I am a tuba player and I will try and help! An E flat tuna will have a fundamental note of E flat (the lowest note that comes out without pressing any valves). When this tuba is played in a brass band it is written in treble clef and the E flat two octaves below middle C is written as a treble clef middle C. When the same tuba plays in an orchestra, it is written in bass clef and at actual pitch, so the note you hear is the note that is written. This is often - but not always - geographical as well; if you are in the brass band areas in the north of England in particular, many brass instruments will be taught using treble clef (“brass band notation”). If you’re elsewhere, the trombone and tuba will often be taught using bass clef actual (“concert pitch”) notation.
I hope this is useful!

Autocorrect fail - I don’t know what an E flat tuna is!

The other question is, are you sure it’s an E flat tuba and not a B flat one? A B flat tuba will be able to play B flat and F without pressing any valves, whereas an E flat tuba without valves depressed will only play an E flat and a B flat.

There are tubas in F. That's the same transposition as a French Horn in F but pitched a couple of octaves lower.

F tubas were/are mainly played by orchestral tubists. I think this is probably quite rare nowadays. I'm sure they play in bass cleff.

Your friend therefore may have an F Tuba!

in short: it's complicated in the brass world

I come from an orchestra world, so trumpets (usually) are b notation, french horn and wagner tuba (usually but not always) in F, tuba and trombone as is.

the brass bands I played in played as is as well (because then you can just take any choral or piano or other instrumental music and play).

but at least the piano part is always 'as is' (maybe piano players are not as panicked when they see anything other that C?)

Thanks all, I shall post a pic of what we have deciphered!

This is what we think...

The tuba part isn't written in bass clef, is it?

Yes I think it is, it’s bass clef as it’s not orchestra/group music (???)

Sorry need to click on photo to see edges/clef