September 2018 Music Thread

[folkmamma]

Hi all! Our lovely host Waffle is away at the moment and has asked me to start this months thread.

Here is a place for us to share stories, ask for advice, and generally support one another through our DCs (and in some cases our own!) musical journeys. All are very welcome, from the early beginners to the very advanced. Some people have been regular contributors for years, but we also have a lot of newcomers and love welcoming new contributors to the MN Music Thread team. I became aware of this group about 9 months ago via the NCO 2018 thread and I now spend more time here than on Facebook... .

Over here, I have Noo, just turned 11, violinist, violist and pianist. She is playing at aroud G7 standard on violin (first study) and is starting JD this month, eek!. Noo is also an associate member of NCO and this year joined the Pro Corda ensemble training programme, which she loves above all else! She is also very into musical theatre and regularly performs in professional and semi-professional shows - it is a challenge to juggle it all, but somehow we do. This month is a biggie for Noo as she starts secondary school as well as JD.

DD2 is Moll. 8yrs old and plays cello and piano. She is a very different kettle of fish to big sister - every bit as able, but some self esteem issues, together with a slightly quirky personality, mean her journey is not often quite so smooth (and mine completely turbulent!). Working towards G3 cello this term (although she doesn’t know it yet) and will go for a consultation at Noo’s JD sometime this term also.

I’m sure Waffle will drop in to update us on Goo, Rara and her own musical self once she gets back from holibobs.

Good luck to everyone with back to school, changes in school, new routines and audition prep! I predict September will be a busy month on the thread!

Over to you....

Philomena dd plays at home on a Yamaha np13 keyboard with semi weighted keys - I'm told it will do a couple of years and it is quite small

Thanks, that's worth looking into se22. I've also just asked her and she'd be quite happy to practise at school.

The thing about the after school clubs at their primary school is that they only get to do it for a term, then they have to choose something else, as all clubs are oversubscribed.

At DD's first choice secondary school they get to do it up to whatever grade is GCSE equivalent (can't remember). So she'd have the chance to learn an instrument properly.

Dd1 just played with the jd chamber orchestra at the chamber music festival, which was brilliant
The head of jd stopped me after the concert and wanted a chat- for those of you who remember our saga with the head of our district culture school (jd here is organised through the culture school system), well it turns out there are still issues- local head refusing to pay . Head of jd has been trying to apply indirect pressure but is hitting a brick wall.....
Moving house is starting to look like the easy option.....

As Green was expressing her worries about mini's effort into her music for a few times, I thought I would write about DS's case and a bit of my thought (hence very personal and voice of a novice), so you can see there is nothing to worry about (though I understand we, parents, are so good at worrying and worrying!) and miniGreen is dong totally absolutely fine.

DS's practice level was totally average for his age until he started JD. He started with 5 mins a day and he was probably practising 15-30 mins on the violin by the time he started thinking of applying for JD. He also didn't practise everyday because of his other commitments as well as weekends and school holidays were off day for us. However he worked a lot harder when he started preparing for JD auditions as he really really wanted to get in. He practiced at weekends too. Once he started JD his practice time increased but never more than an hour bracket with a couple of weekly day off, mainly because his violin teacher was not keen on long hours practice (she is also anti-music school...). But I think DS became more efficient and productive (not always but a lot better than before) because he improved a lot under her teaching. Up until then, I think his practice level was reasonable for any relatively serious young musician. Any DCs doing something relatively serious such as tennis, swimming, football, dance etc, would probably spend similar amount of time or even more.

But now he is at a place where expectation is a lot higher than ever. He loves music that's no doubt but whether he can cope with the amount of work expected is unsure yet. I don't think how much you can practise equal how much you love or care, especially young DCs. Nigel Kennedy used to hide with a book in a toilet to escape from individual practice sessions. But at some point the attitude has to be changed, like Nigel Kennedy decided to put the book down to practise more. Some can't change or tried but couldn't. Those who realize they can't practise to the expected level would leave the school at some point, which is understandable as not all the talented people can cope with the discipline and workload needed to be a professional or to reach the expected standard in the highly competitive environment. Determination and eagerness are very important quality to keep going after all. And anyway it's not a bad thing to realize it's not their thing and move on. We need the flexibility.

Then there are those who purely enjoy any form of practice and can't just stop playing and it's so natural for them to spend 3 - 4 hours or more on practicing daily. That's wonderful. All I can say is DS is not like that. He is very much of your usual 11 years old who can easily be tempted to do something else but it's not because he likes music less than those who can practise endlessly. Loving music and being able to practise for hours are a different thing, I think. And maturity and awareness play a lot too.

miniGreen is younger than DS, she has plenty time to 'realize' if she wants to put more effort or not. And as I always said this to you, you are a very caring mum.

Almost every musician will tell you that they don't enjoy practising. That's because, by its very nature, practising means being faced with all the things you aren't good enough at, all of your flaws...and who would enjoy that, except sado-masochists??!
If done properly, it's lonely, it's frustrating a lot of the time, it's repetitive ; the reward only comes later.

Patrick, the school mum friend is very typical of someone who's terrified that someone else's choices reflects badly on their own. She obviously lacks self confidence, otherwise she wouldn't be bothered about what miniPatrick is doing.
We've had similar attitudes from "friends" for sending our DCs to private schools, and also because DS is a music scholar - of course, the only reason (according to some people) is because DH and I are musicians so therefore D'S has an unfair advantage. They don't seem to be able to acknowledge that DS has got where he has through his own hard work (yes, he certainly has the advantage of parents who can help him but he's had to put the time and effort in himself).

Patrick and floot [smile

Patrick

Flootoot

I have to disagree with your comment about almost most musicians.

Without a doubt I've found they love it, they can do it all day if they want and don't have to work in an office, bank, school, or any other job.
practise is part of the job of a musician, you can't not like it

I probably know different musicians to you though, I'm not accusing you of not knowing what you are talking about

Lotsofmilk, so glad her flute is repaired - that's a super quick job!

Swaying, you mean you are just tossing around the idea of moving your dd to non-specialist school or the process has already been started ? Why? She doesn't want to be there any more?

cant, good luck nosebleed boy!

Mending

I suppose any job, including your ultimate dream job, comes with fun bits and not so fun bits. Just because you love teaching doesn't mean you would enjoy everything that comes with being a teacher - you may not like admin or dealing with parents, etc. So it's not very surprising when musicians say practice is not their favourite part of their job. Also, it depends on what you regard as 'enjoyable'. Some people may say they love or enjoy practice including the painful procedure, but some may say it's not enjoyable or they don't dear to say they love it due to the painful procedure. Both may actually feel similarly towards their practice but describe the feeling differently - (not sure if I've managed to explain well here!).

DD has to audition during year 8 to transfer from chorister to instrumentalist so it’s quite good that she is ambivalent to be honest. Makes it a lot less stressful. Although, sometimes you don’t know what you really think until the choice is taken from you!

I suppose I can’t help thinking that if it was right for you to go to specialist music school, you would just know. Money is an issue too, can’t afford singing lessons if she stays and that’s her real passion. Can’t afford piano lessons if she leaves and I feel any of the jobs she’s likely to do in music will need piano. Would have to buy a cello if she left! But maybe monthly lessons plus city string orchestra would be enough for her to enjoy her cello, and then she could focus on piano and singing.

Academics I’m a bit lost with, no idea where she’s at so not really thinking about that. Socially, she’d benefit from a larger cohort. Also, I forgot the main thing, she detests solo performance (loves chamber music). Lastly, and this may be bonkers, if you start a specialist program on a string instrument in year 9, having not been an intensive player before, is it possible that you just wouldn’t physically be up to the amount of practise required? And get some kind of repetive strain injury and have to leave...is that unheard of?!

Interesting discussion about practice @patricksviolin. DS2 currently practises 20-30 minutes a day on the violin and 5-10 minutes on the piano depending on how the morning goes. Over the summer he did about an hour on the violin and 20 minutes on the piano. He has two days off a week and doesn’t practise the morning after a late choir concert so has only practised 3 times this week, for example.

He seems to enjoy practising and never complains about it, although he is often very tired. He has to practise before school starting at about 6.30 am and ending at about 7.10. It is the only time he has. Any earlier and he is too tired to get through the day.

Really, though he needs a bit more time. In the run up to the Nco audition, we haven’t been doing piano, and even the extra 10 minutes has made a huge difference. This is because he uses that 10 minutes to play through the whole of his fast piece every day, slowly, whereas before we were always in troubleshoot mode. He has gone from making loads of slips to having it ready with just a bit of work needed on playing the opening accurately when following on from the first piece rather than playing into it for the first half page or so... (see latest cluster recording for a good example of that!) And getting the opening spot on is Crucial for making a good impression!

So overall, I agree that hours of practice aren’t essential. But having extra time really does help! I wish DS2 could practise 45 minutes - an hour a day. I’d be fascinated to hear about others’ practice routines!

Romany, my comment about hating it was slightly tongue in cheek. 😀
My point is that bring faced with your flaws is never fun. Playing is enjoyable, of course, but practising, if done properly, isn't playing the things you can already play. It's a bit like exercising - the enjoyment comes when you've finished and can reflect on what you've accomplished...the rest is just hard work!

I'd bet that those who love practising for hours on end are actually playing for much of that, not actually practising - there's a difference.

www.openculture.com/2017/04/wynton-marsalis-gives-12-tips-on-how-to-practice-for-musicians-athletes-or-anyone-who-wants-to-learn-something-new.html

Really interesting article about Wynton Marsalis on practising.
He and Yo Yo Ma actually made a video called "Tackling the Monster", with both admitting they hate it! 😀

Swaying, wow, you have a lot to think of... Is she happy as long as she can carry on singing - her real passion? Or do you think she actually has preference whether to stay or not? As with your concern over the physical demand for a serious instrumentalist, I assume the school gives them time to build up so gradually increase the practice amount and also they probably provide something like Alexander Technique to prevent from such injury. In fact, I think injury is rarer at music school where intensive practice is expected due to the proper support like that.

Taggie, I agree extra time helps! Looking back at DS's last year's schedule (so the first year of jd), he usually managed 30-45 mins for weekdays and one or two days no practice then he would try to do more on Sundays or whenever he could. When he managed to practise piano on top, he sometimes practise 1 hour - 1 hour 15 mins for two instruments but we prioritised violin whenever we struggled to find time. When he was preparing for NCO, music scholarship, exams, often etude and studies had to be sacrificed which was of course not ideal. However, I do think this limited time for practice gave him to learn how to make most of it. Not quite perfect yet as he is still young really. But sometimes when he had more time he ended up achieving pretty similar to when he could practise much shorter. I think it's a metal game.

Then, here is DS's previous teacher... She kept telling me an hour daily practice would be enough to reach necessary standard to enter conservatoires - she claimed she had many like than under her wings. She was so against many hours practice for young age. In fact he was against music school. I don't really know how right she is yet. She was talking from experience though. The last thing we want for our kids is burn-out, and she sounded she saw so many talented kids gave up because of it.

DS is struggling to juggle practice commintments at the moment. He has rehearsals at school on Mondays, Tuesdays and Thursdays and youth orchestra on Friday, plus a cello lesson one evening a week.
Ideally, he'd do 45 - 60 minutes a day on cello, 20-30 mins on piano, but it's more like 40 minutes cello, 20 minutes piano at the moment, and some days are either/or, as he has a lot of homework and also theory exam prep.
If time is short, the best thing he can do is practice scales - they encompass bowing, fingering, tone, vibrato etc so cover just about everything. I try to make sure he "touches" his cello every day, if possible, even just playing for 10 minutes, to keep him in the routine and discipline of practising. Weekends are easier, so he manages proper, long sessions.

Floot, this is what we think;

Play as much as you like (fun!), and practise as much as you need (tough!).

I agree with your comment that longer isn't necessarily any more productive, Patrick. I often tell my pupils ( and my children), " work smarter, not longer or harder".
The real work is in honing in on the problem and then fixing it. So often, you'll hear pupils start to play from the beginning of the piece every time, hit a problem, start over again, hit the same problem, maybe try to play the problem bar again ( with limited success) and then carry on until the next problem bar. They don't identify what the problem actually is and they don't think about ways to solve it - they simply run ilat it again and hope repetition will fix it.
Of course, when time is limited, they may not even get to the end of the piece in a session...but they still start from the top the next day. Or they'll play the bit they can play well and congratulate themselves on a job well done. 😉

I love that mantra, Patrick - perfect!
A friend tells her pianist son, " We only practise on the days we eat". 🤣🤣

I think you have got it Patrick, if she could stay and sing even as a second study, that would be great (piano still a problem but she thinks she’ll just pick that up, maybe get a friend to teach her, the confidence of youth ). But it tips the balance only just, she would still like lots more friends! An interesting couple of years ahead and on my gut I feel the cello sliding away to some extent, maybe orchestra still, ‘normal’ school plus her perfect singing teacher that we’ve reconnected with you to help her decide, and hopefully, a minimistigri style emergence on the piano!

Floot, if I recall it correctly, the one your pianist friend quoted is Dr. Suzuki's mantra.

Swaying, quite a few children seem to pick up piano in the minimistigri style (though not the same lightning speed of progress!! 🤣) so she could probably pick it up without formal lessons if she just needs it as a supporting study for future job - a bit of formal lessons at some point may be ideal/helpful though you can think of it later. It sounds like the small number of children at school is part of your concerns? That might be our future concern too...!

I've just told DD We only practise on the days we eat. I like that. Apparently she's learning trombone, they've already chosen their instruments in their normal music lesson in school time.

Does anyone play trombone here? What should she expect from her first lesson?