August Music Thread

[Wafflenose]

Welcome to the new music thread for August - a place to discuss anything you like to do with learning instruments/ singing. We have child and adult learners on here, and all standards from toddlers experimenting with music to the very advanced.

It's coming up to 7 years since I started the first thread, and I have been flagging a bit lately due to a long illness. When I started the first one, my daughter Goo had just turned 6 and was about to take her Grade 1 recorder exam! She is now 12 (13 in two months), has done her Grade 8 Flute (result currently under appeal), is thinking about Grade 8 Recorder next year (having not played since Year 6) and is learning the piano. Piano hasn't gone well this term. Her teacher has been going on lots of last minute holidays and also has another job now, so Goo has only had two piano lessons since Easter. Teacher has now decided to retire from teaching, so we need to find a new one. Goo has never, ever performed on the piano and hasn't taken any exams either. She has been learning since she was 10, and was recently learning pieces by Bach and Chopin, although I have no idea what she is practising at the moment.

I also have Rara (10) who plays the cello, clarinet and recorder at a good Grade 4 level. It doesn't come naturally to her at all, but she's more inclined to work at things... when it suits her. She plays the clarinet most, but swears she's in love with the cello. Her bass clef reading definitely seems stronger. We have started and stopped theory three times. I think she is more than capable of doing it, but she's distractible, longwinded and feels the need to reinvent the wheel. I have decided to wait until she's ready to do the whole lot in one go... hopefully when she is a bit more mature and developmentally ready. Goo had it done and dusted at the same age and I find it hard not to worry about Rara at times, but in many ways she's just as able... but on her own timeline.

I usually have 80-90 woodwind pupils on my books - mostly recorder these days, although I'm a clarinettist really. I currently have a clutch of little clarinets, a couple of flutes and a good saxophone pupil, so plenty of variety.

Music is incredibly accessible to young people now. When I was a teen learning piano it was virtually impossible to listen to various interpretations of pieces before learning to play them (unless you had a parent with a massive collection of classical records). Now DS can check out his pieces on YouTube if he has any doubts about whether he's got the timing right.

The internet has made it possible for young people to teach themselves music in a way that was impossible 30 years ago. DS taught himself to play rock guitar using the internet (well enough that he was able to join a group of 3rd and 4th year students when he started lessons) and the reason he's been able to leapfrog from beginner to good intermediate standard on piano is largely down to the internet too - for eg he learnt to read music using websites and apps.

My children don't particularly distinguish between types of music, they enjoy all sorts. DS has forged his own musical taste quite independently and he as happy listening to classical music as to west coast garage rock. DD listens to everything from jazz to k-pop. I don't think there are the same "tribal" distinctions as there were when I was a kid.

It's certainly true that young people are unlikely to be buying music in HMV.
My DD mainly listens to classical music, with a preference for renaissance choral music, so a bit niche! She does listen to some jazz too, and enjoys musical theatre, but has no ambitions to do musical theatre professionally (has enjoyed it as an amateur though). She's just recently started to listen to music really carefully, analysing it. Which she'll presumably need to do for A'level. Anyone else doing A'level music?

Loose, such reassurance from someone who works in education and also has older DCs therefore has been there. I know what you mean. Although I'm terribly worrying about my judgement (allowing DS to go down the specialist route so early), I also see Y7 and Y8 as possibly the best years to test out due to the flexibility before serious academic work starts. But I keep forgetting about it and going back to the same worries. Such agony of being a parent!

druid, thanks also for reminding me that DS has obtained the dream ticket to the school he's been so longing to go. My sister actually said something similar to you on pursuing dreams at young age. She said, 'if it's not now, when can he?'. She believes immersing yourself in something you feel passionate about is one of the happiest and best ways of spending teen years nevertheless the outcome. Passion and commitment will never be waste whatever you end up doing in future... I hope she is right!

Patrick you've put so much thought into it and listened carefully to your child so I'm sure DS is going to throw himself into the experience! many of my students are people who finally figured out what they wanted to do after they left school! There are many different paths.

Off topic, but where's Kutik? I've noticed she's not on this thread.

Loose, I always had strong interest in some specific areas and believed they were what I would pursue in all my life since very young. I changed, picked new things and did something else to make money along the way but my main interests stay pretty the same and now I'm again thinking of going back to my root (dreams and interests of my childhood) at 40+. So I suspect what DS has discovered as his main passion at his (very young) age may stay the same and if it doesn't become his career he may still keep revising it and deepening and polishing it through his life, like me! Meaning, I'm still trying to figure out what I want to do!!

catkind, seeing child prodigies always has an essence of entertainment but I agree it's becoming less exiting as we can easily find plenty of them on YouTube now. This movement may finally help end the silly race of trying to achieve something very young or trying to impress the world in that way. I always feel child prodigies are a product of grow ups who want to make money out of it, and there seem to be very little gain for the poor child. Sure there are survivors but many of them actually end up suffering tremendously by losing the identity as a prodigy (because you have to be a child to be the one but we all age eventually).

PatricksViolin I don't think all genuine prodigies are like that. When my DD joined our local conservatoire, her teacher had not one but two exceptional students. The younger one was only 10 at the time (and a small 10 at that). I remember watching gobsmacked at the end of year concert as he played one of the harder Chopin études, and pieces by Liszt and Rachmaninov. He could barely reach the pedals ... I'm not easily impressed but this kid was exceptional.

Two years on, he has been studying with a well-known French pianist and composer and won a prize at an international competition this year (at age 12). But he still has zero internet presence so his parents clearly have no interest in monetising his talent.

It's humbling to see musicians like that. My children have some musical ability, and my DS probably has the perseverance required to become an accomplished musician (we'll see - he was a late starter) - but they are a long way from having that sort of talent.

Sprout DD1 may have some kind of synaesthesia with regard to numbers and maths. She talks of colours and sequences being stepped - visualises them.

Mistigri, I realised that

Sorry I posted too early!

I realised that my previous post sounded like I was denying the whole existence of prodigy but I didn't mean that. Of course there are exceptionally and naturally gifted children with and without parental input - I know a few in person too. But it's also true that there is the element of racing to achieve young not just in music but in many other areas. Also those who start over the top 'prodigy' propaganda are not necessarily always parents but people around them. Alma Deutscher's father once said his daughter being compared with Mozart was truly unnecessary and unwanted burden for a young girl. The media started it, not the family.

But I realised that my post is not at all relevant to catkind's post too! I just simply responded to her mentioning about young talents displayed on YouTube and I seemed to jump into a totally different discussion. Sorry!

PatricksViolin I think it's a rare genius that doesn't have a parent behind them (and it's usually in jazz or contemporary music where an early start is less essential). The kid I talked about definitely does have parents behind him, in fact I think the mum or maybe the grandmother is a university music professor. But pushing a child into precocious achievement and facilitating their musical development are two different things. You can probably guess which is which by the number of YouTube videos of the child (none, in this case).

Yes it may be rare but that's why they are called 'prodigy' or 'genius'. I think the word of 'prodigy' is being overused these days. Perlman himself said he was a very talented and driven child but certainly not a prodigy. The term was used by media not by him or his family. Having supportive parents is a great bonus though. Those who are called prodigy or even worse made to believe they are prodigy when they are actually just a very talented and hard working child the life will be super tough later on...

But there are survivors of course. Though still it must be super tough.

No 1 test has to be is the child enjoying what they're doing? Alma Deutscher for example very obviously is. No 2 test, are they playing in a way you'd want to listen to regardless of age and regardless of how technically hard or easy their music is?

Doing stuff young to my mind gives people more space to play around before they have to try to make a living out of music or something else. Which is no bad thing for them musically. I guess just we have seen enough kids who are technically very able very young that it's not something that makes the news any more. Which as Patrick says is probably also no bad thing for their musical development.

The comparison of Mozart to modern prodigies is interesting in that respect. His family were obviously milking social media like mad I have heard it said that his playing ability as a child wouldn't make waves these days either.

The prodigy discussion is a very interesting one, from a teaching point of view.
I have a flute pupil who is preparing for grade 8 piano. She recently got a distinction at grade 5 flute, so it would be fair to assume that she's a pretty competent musician. However, she actually has no understanding of the mechanics of music, so, for example, her sightreading is pretty poor and any expression she puts into a piece is learnt, rather than instinctive. In other words, she's reached a level of ability through practise but doesn't have any real natural, inate musicality.

DS's teacher says she meets lots of children that say they are grade 8 standard but they're actually not because they don't have the depth of knowledge to play at that level, only to pass the exam and the particular pieces they've studied for it.

Hello everyone! We’ve had a solid 2 weeks camping with no internet which is why I’ve temporarily disappeared. I’ve concluded there’s too much to catch up on so am just going to jump in here and try my best to keep up - though we’ve another trip coming up so I’m not sure how well I’ll do.

I’ve got a relatively non-musical but very dance-y DS (19), who just picks up guitar/ any instrument that suits a band or song he wants to play whenever he feels like it, and then two very little ones (2 years 6 months old, and 6 months old) who don’t feature much on this thread.

Mainly I talk about my super sporty violinist and flautist (and occasional pianist) who’s 14, my dance/trampoline/netball mad cellist and clarinettist (and occasional pianist, bass guitarist, guitarist, ukulele group member, xylophonist, cajon drummer, drum kit basher and most recently accordionist... it’s not like she hasn’t got enough else to be getting on with) who’s 12 and my 6 year old, who’s mostly into gymnastics but has recently started a few violin lessons on a very tiny violin, plus learnt some ukulele and mandolin chords from her big sisters.

I can’t wait to read about what everyone else is up to! And Waffle, thanks as ever for hosting the thread. I really hope you’re doing well in spite of everything.

I think grade 8 distinction at young age without much musical innate is quite reachable for smart/academic DCs. This is one reason why I am not very sure about DS's choice of making music as his main interest because his quick progress in music could be mainly due to his intelligence rather than innate musicality. He shows similarly quick progress in many other areas. He is good at recognising patterns and so on so it's not so difficult for him to reach advanced level if he puts enough effort. It'll be a disaster for him to go down the specialist route without enough natural musical abilities required to survive. But anyway I wrote enough of my worries in this matter so I won't start here again!

Anyway reaching grade 8 early could be indicating good musical ability or high intelligence but absolutely nothing to do with prodigy. As Floot's DS's teacher said, maturity is the key, I think. Many youngsters can reach incredibly advanced technicality if they are relatively talented/dedicated/good support at home and good teaching/intelligent, but their lack of life experience cannot be hid. The reason Perlman said he wasn't a prodigy but rather just a highly talented kid was because if you closed your eyes and listened to him you could tell it was a child playing - very advanced but too youthful. Perlman's definition of prodigy is someone who can play with incredible emotional understanding of grown ups = enough maturity so you can't tell if it's a child playing. I agree with his view (though I don't deny him a prodigy!).

He also said as a teacher he enjoys teaching highly talented and hard working DCs rather than prodigies. Prodigies need totally different support and teaching which he doesn't really enjoy nor cater. Great news for non-prodigies.

I don't know much of music prodigies so can't name one but for instance Bobby Fischer was a prodigy for me. He said he wasn't a chess genius like many people labelled him but just a genius who chose to play chess though. He didn't get any parental input other than being given a chess set as a random gift so you can say he was a rare thing Mistigri pointed.

Really interesting discussion - I have been reading whilst worrying about floor levels and new doors
Patrick I'm sure you've made the right decision re your mini - he's not got to where he is just through being good at lots of stuff and working hard and I very much doubt that someone who did ( and it would still be an amazing achievement) would even want to go to specialist school.
Plus Ds knows someone who did go to specialist school but left at the end of year 7 realising that it wasn't for him - so worry not you haven't mapped his whole life out for him you are giving him an opportunity
Floot that's also why I think ds's teacher is holding off on grade 8 he wants him to have that musical experience first.
We head up to the lakes today for NCO which starts tomorrow Ds is very excited and has just about recovered from his very intensive AYM week now !! He has absolutely loved the music that has been chosen for both courses this year - lots of really modern stuff and pieces with jazz and blues influences ( which I'm increasingly thinking is where his interest mostly lies. you can tell when he plays that he is just really enjoying himself which is what it's all about )

Good luck with the journey up to Cumbria Trumpet. Hope the traffic is kind. 10 days still to go until we have to sit in traffic past Stonehenge on the way to Dorset. Last year we stopped in Salisbury on the way home from dropping DD2 off - may have to think hard about doing that this year.

Doubleup I know all too well what you mean about that road. We're heading down to Devon at the weekend.
The thing about recognising patterns really interests me. My dcs are definitely like this with guitar. They have started later with guitars but pick things up really fast because I think they see the chords and scales as patterns rather than notes. As a teacher it's fascinating for me to see how differently students learn and how much you have to adapt what you're doing.
DS1 raced through bass guitar grades (easy instrument!) on a lot of practice and a good memory but his new teacher says this is where he starts to learn how to really play! He's already gained a much deeper understanding of music and is enjoying being really challenged.
I hope DS2 gets to this stage with his cello. We have Y9 coming up and I suspect this year will be all gritted teeth and resistance!

My kids both came to music via the guitar although DD had some prior experience of recorder and baroque music as a young child. So I have some experience of classical versus non classical educational routes, and I definitely would second what's been said about patterns.

What's interesting about starting on guitar is that it takes the mystique and the difficulty out of theory. Transposing is as simple as moving up or down a fret or several. Once you can play one scale you can play it in any key, it's just a pattern.

But interestingly, for my children and for my 15 yo DS in particular, that opens the door to learning stuff that often isn't broached until much later in classical music education. DS (who has one year of guitar and a few weeks of piano) knows a lot of theory - he knows the different types of scale, he is very knowledgeable about modes and chord progressions. And now he's started to play piano and can read bass and treble clef, he can look at a piece and analyse it in a way that I can't. I caught him yesterday transposing a Chopin nocturne and playing variations. He started piano in July and has had one lesson! The difference is a year of intensive guitar playing has taken the fear of music theory away.