November Music Thread

[Wafflenose]

New month, new thread! This is a place for musicians and parents of musicians, from complete beginners to experienced and everything in between, to talk about everything to do with music! Previous threads have covered exams, practice, scales, instrument hire and purchase, theory, composition, aural woes, auditions, scholarship preparation and much more.

I started these threads when my 12 year old daughter Goo was 6 and preparing for Grade 1. I never thought we'd still be going, 6 years later! I appreciated all the advice I was given back then, and try to repay that when I can.

Goo plays the flute and piano (she has been learning the piano for 18 months but has yet to perform - ever) and has no exams lined up at the moment. I also have Rara who is 9, and working towards her third Grade 3, on the clarinet. The other two were on the cello and recorder. She's more interested in art and reading, and currently swims five times a week.

I am a teacher of woodwind, and Wednesday is my day from you-know-where... full-on from 6.30 am until 10 pm, and about to get worse!!

fedup, I teach my students to treat note reading as a map. So, we have a starting point (let's say it's a C, as an example) and rather than read the next note as a note name (eg E), they learn to recognise whether it is higher or lower, and then whether it's a step up/down or a jump up/down. Gradually then, they learn to recognise intervals - so, from space/line note to the next space/line note is a 3rd, then a 5th etc.
If you think about it, this is how clefs work - there are no absolute notes, since the pitch is only set by the clef, if that makes sense. The above technique was taught to me at college - in musicianship lesson, we had to learn to transpose at the piano at sight, and also to score read orchestral scores that included transposing instrument. It works particularly well on piano because of having the notes laid out in front of you, so you can 'see' intervals and you always have a 5th under your fingers.

herts, I'm with you. While what drummer says is a sad fact of life, I think a career in the arts is always heart, not head, and has always been - the idea of starving artists is fact, not fiction!
What is true of the music profession, perhaps more than ever before, is that most musicians have portfolio careers, that might include teaching, coaching, shows, arranging, fixing, chamber music, session work etc. Back in the day, music colleges trained you with a view to getting a permanent orchestral position; these days, they recognise that musicians have to be able to turn their hand to just about anything, so, for example, GSMD have just created a session orchestra that is training alongside pro session musicians (with the MD from Strictly Come Dancing). Lots of my friends play in West End or touring shows - perhaps not the most fulfilling,musically, but financially lucrative and now much sought-after.

Apologies for yet another post!
drummer, your ds sounds very grounded. Specialist school is absolutely not the be all and end all, and actually, many parents are giving places like Chet's a wide birth since the historical sex abuse cases came to light.
As you say, he is who he is and it sounds like he'll work hard to succeed in whichever area he chooses.

floot never apologise for posting. Your knowledge and experience is like gold. Not like gold, it is actually gold.

DS is a treble reader but is occasionally asked to play bass clef. He doesn't do it often enough to have mastered it and he also translates to treble and then plays. If he's not fast enough then he makes it up (he's not been rumbled yet) His teacher says that if he did it regularly it just becomes automatic, the bass/treble translation step is just a transitional thing that will fade with practice.

We have had several instances in the family of children being pushed down career paths by their parents. One was "encouraged" to be a doctor, one was "encouraged" to apply to conservatoire. Both did one year, left and went off and did their own thing. I don't want DS to do what he has always wanted to do, I'd rather he have a nice safe career path as an accountant or a lawyer, but this is his life and not mine. I've spent the last seven years attempting to point out "better" options and he's having none of it.

On the theme of children deciding music not for them I have heard of two in the last few days who have reached that conclusion. One is 16/17 extremely good a violin, London JD for years and been planning on music college for years. Now she has just decided her passion to take it further has gone. Another one at a specialist music school in year 10 who is a fantastic player has decided he wants to do something else and will leave for a normal sixth form. I guess they are the lucky ones in that they the decision was fairly easy.

Drummers our backgrounds sound very similar. I gave up offers from heavyweight unis to study fine art. Left education with no debt, and I could even afford to buy a flat in London with my new graduate salary. Fell into a good job where I acquired various post-grad qualifications, mainly paid for by someone else.

It is much harder for our kids.

I think how early you should know/decide would depend on which instrument you play? DS is a violinist. We have no plan to send him to a specialist school, nor letting him drop other stuff (academic for instance)for the sake of securing long hours of daily practice. It's quite clear already that he is not destined to take it to a professional level! He could do something to do with music though, just not as a violinist!

Kutik, I'm pretty sure I didn't do much more than 1.5 hours a day, max until I got to music college, and some days none at all, due to musical commitments. As an undergraduate, I probably did between 2 and 4 hours, post grad we were told we should be doing 4 to 6, but I'd guess the majority of orchestral instrument students didn't - impossible if you are rehearsing with the college orchestra for 6 hours a day!
I guess pianists are slightly different.

That's very kind of you to say, drummer.

kutik re your DS there's a difference between aiming for be a good violinist at an orchestra and being a world renowned soloist. At DS school a couple of students have gone to RCM. I have no doubt they will have a professional life in their respective instruments even though they went to an academic school and did lots of stuff, just not a Perlman or Kennedy career IYKWIM.
But someone correct me if wrong.

Thank you for the Opera suggestions, I'm just catching up with the thread. It does move so quickly.

Those of you who are on the private youtube channel will know my dd won't be recorded, so I can post, but here's the next best thing.

6 months ago Manchester was in deep sadness after the horrific terrorist attack. The children sang an impromptu song from the middle of the cordon, hardly a sound could be heard otherwise.
Now, they have arranged the piece and recorded it for British Red Cross.
My dd is in there somewhere, along with other children of other parents on here.
www.classicfm.com/music-news/videos/chethams-dont-look-back-in-anger-manchester-attack/

I will take a look, Gilly.

I seem to be unusual, in that I would LOVE Goo to follow me into music. But like a PP said, it's her life, not mine. She is good at lots of things, and looks more likely to go into something like law.

Drummers - I've asked a few people teachers linked to conservatoires how many end up professionally employed a few years down the line and never got a straight answer. It doesn't seem to be that it is possible for every (or indeed even most) graduate of the top conservatoires to end up playing professionally. There are just too many graduating every year compared to the employment opportunities and I read an article a while ago criticising the conservatoires for overselling the dream. Of course a large number end up teaching at various levels and perhaps playing semi-professionally and have an enjoyable music filled life with reasonable standard of living. On percussion in particular I scratch my head at the number of people graduating each year across the UK conservatoires and wonder what the hell they all end up doing.

If my DS does end up carrying on with music professionally in some way I'm hoping he ends up with a rich wife who works in the City or something similar :)

herts, it's a very difficult question to answer. I would guess that in my year group, both grad and performance course, probably 75% or even more are still working in music, but not necessarily all performing for a living. As I said further up the thread, the majority of performers have some kind of portfolio career to support their income.
When I went to music college, they took in 2 or 3 flautists each year, because that is how many they needed for the graduate orchestra. Of the woodwind students in my year, I think maybe only 1 is not now working in music, 25 years on.
I wonder how those statistics compare to graduates of other subjects?

waffle

I think music is a hard business, I know my dh recommends his pupils don't go into it professionally if they have something else they can do.
I suppose there's a point in there somewhere.
Law will pay a lot more than working as a musician.
I was surprised to learn how little the rank and file are paid in the main orchestras, it's practically unheard of to just play for a living.

Interesting Floot - yes agree on the portfolio career point although it does seem that for a lot the portfolio ends up being 90% teaching! :) (without saying too much somebody I know who was a leading soloist still seems to spend 75% of time teaching) Not necessarily a bad thing as long as eyes are open from the beginning.

Gilly it is... I teach and do loads of other stuff, all the hours God sends, and earn £14-18k. It varies. But I would still be happy for Goo to do similar, if that's what she wanted.

I think you stand more chance freelance.
There is always work but you need to be a net worker first and a musician second.
We managed it on just dh's earnings and still could if we wanted to, but it is a lower income and not for those who like a lifestyle full of luxury.
He also never stops working, there is always a project on or applying for funding.
He has managed to cut the teaching right back from when the dc were older, but when they were little he taught at a couple of prestigious schools.
Teaching is very little now and on an ad hoc basis, nobody regular really.
He spends a lot of time practising, does some arranging, not for money so much as for his own colleagues in particular bands.

I'd say a good proportion comes from depping and the odd bit of orchestral that comes in.

I couldn't imagine him doing anything else though, and it seems like dd has made her mind up that she's going to follow.

Waffle: just checked with my teacher and he said, yes ofcourse she could ask to do that, thanks so much, we didnt know. He although mentioned( or reminded me) that the sight-singing marks will still be lost, I didnt know there was sight singing.

Kutik: your start for piano was really impressive compare to us. For nearly 2 years we were on Twinkle, nursery songs, sharing lessons with the neighbors then the neighbors were too bored, they dropped then I changed to our current teacher and he has been with us till now. I really had no idea about her music progress until I joined this thread(and without this thread then I dont know where we would have been in music now).

Floot, Drummers, Herts, Misti...everyone: your posts are gold I agreed.:)(and yes I was a baby by mid of the 80s :))

The only professional violinist I knew started on violin at 16. He is very succesful and lives very wealth off(however his parents were very wealth off and his grand parents were millionaire at their time, so not too sure whether it was 100% self-made for him though). He is also a member of Athenaeum Club.

My ignorange with grade is we consider music as a great hobby to pursue and to progress, each grade is set as a challenge to measure our overall learning progress...its purely for fun(however she might not agree with me when she practises). That was all. She can drop once she is done with G8(which in my eyes means the very basic has been learnt) for piano and whenever she wants with violin(which also means stop going to her current Orchestra). I havent thought further about GCSE, A level or career yet. May be because for us we have been only ableto plan 3 months ahead( it goes with childcare plan as we both do long hours and her sister is only 3yrs old). For now my plan is: piano exam in few days, Christmas holiday childcare, Easter holiday childcare.

Green won't she hum or whistle the sight singing? If she is at risk of failing, I'd tell her she HAS to! I'm sure she'll be fine though. For the record, she is way ahead of almost everyone else I know. Don't worry about where music lies in terms of time or priorities. She likes it and is good at it!

Ha ha herts the other day we were discussing options with DS and he jokingly said "I could also marry a rich girl". Unfortunately I think he's a romantic at heart

Really interesting reading everyone . Who knows where ds will end up but despite my concerns about him making a living I won't put him off - sometimes I think you really do just know what you want to do with your life and you at least need to try and find a way to make it work . The level of student debt though is pretty scary . Ds's teacher always exercises a lot of caution ( which as he is still only 12 I think is right) but I did say to him the other day - what if he does just know if that's the case then maybe we should be focusing more of our effort in a musical direction ? For now school will continue to want him to do well in everything !! So we will keep an eye on things and help him to spin all the plates . At least he doesn't play piano where hours of practice are expected .
Hopefully ds will also feel more positive about school today as we've found out that he has won a prestigious award at school for showing musical promise !! At least I can point out to him that at least some of the teachers at school do " get" him as I think you need to be nominated by a few teachers for the award

minitrumpet that's fabulous