November Music Thread

[Wafflenose]

New month, new thread! This is a place for musicians and parents of musicians, from complete beginners to experienced and everything in between, to talk about everything to do with music! Previous threads have covered exams, practice, scales, instrument hire and purchase, theory, composition, aural woes, auditions, scholarship preparation and much more.

I started these threads when my 12 year old daughter Goo was 6 and preparing for Grade 1. I never thought we'd still be going, 6 years later! I appreciated all the advice I was given back then, and try to repay that when I can.

Goo plays the flute and piano (she has been learning the piano for 18 months but has yet to perform - ever) and has no exams lined up at the moment. I also have Rara who is 9, and working towards her third Grade 3, on the clarinet. The other two were on the cello and recorder. She's more interested in art and reading, and currently swims five times a week.

I am a teacher of woodwind, and Wednesday is my day from you-know-where... full-on from 6.30 am until 10 pm, and about to get worse!!

Haha drummers honestly no idea whether DS has a musical "gift" or not, but he does have very good fine motor skills and he likes a challenge. He's also naturally interested in the theory side, much more so than DD.

No idea whether it will go anywhere, but if he approaches piano with anything like the determination he has shown with guitar he'll improve very quickly. He doesn't know yet if he wants lessons, but my teacher is good and ridiculously cheap so that's an option.

green I do empathise. The teacher's comments seem a bit vague, to be honest. If you look through the marking criteria us.abrsm.org/en/our-exams/information-and-regulations/graded-music-exam-marking-criteria/ you can see that they do not demand perfection!

Perhaps try listening to some recordings? I find that helps DS!

Keep us posted!

could I just pop my head in to get the benefit of your collective musical brain....
DS13 is doing grade 5 trombone soon. We have come to the realisation that he is absolutely rubbish at reading music and sight reading in particular. His teacher says he is "unique" and "hilarious"( which DS took as a compliment but I'm not sure it is...) in that he has great musicality and can play from ear really well/improvise but struggles with even really basic sightreading. He does trinity and exercises rather than scales which I'm not sure helps. DS currently plays in a jazz band..... but would like to play in an orchestra or similar but the lack of sightreading is really holding him back. Any ideas for apps or work books that may help?

fedup is your DS dyslexic/ might he have eyesight problems?

My DD is OK at sightreading a single line of notes eg for sax, but has always struggled to sightread for piano. She has got better at it this year because her teacher now makes her accompany young strings players at her music school - so DD has had to read a lot of different (but easy) music and can't simply memorise everything.

I think there is something inherent about how easy kids find it to read music though - DS as a beginner pianist seems to find sight reading easier than his sister and it's not a question of practice.

I definitely think some find sight reading easier than others. Ds was hopeless a couple of years ago we spent a lot of time practicing it before exams. I found breaking it down into the things that he needed to remember to do - key signature, time signature speed and subdividing notes before he even attempted to play really helped otherwise he launched in and easily lost his way . Playing by ear is a great thing to be able to do though - especially for jazz . Oh and use anything for practice the excerpts for exams are sometimes really random and it helps ( I think) to sight read other easy stuff that is a bit more " musical"

Back from the weekly rehearsal of the youth orchestra DS belongs to. I was chatting with other parents while DCs were rehearsing. I have mentioned about the fabulous concert master on this thread a couple of times. I didn't know about her other than she was a great violinist, but apparently she got grade 8 in piano and violin before entering secondary school, and now has a few more grade 8s and goes to JD (the firm information from parent detectives ). She is Year 11. Naturally the conversation moved to sixth form. Then one parent claimed she believed the concert master wouldn't stay at the current school. The reason was someone like her should drop everything for music so no point staying the mainstream education any further. All other parents agreed that she would go to a specialist school.

None of them know the girl nor family in person, so it's all just a gossip. But after reading drummers heart-aching posts, I found it's so surprising that people outside assume a child who achieves so much in a particular area would head for the profession, full stop.

Maybe they are right, and she may head for a specialist school. Or academic always comes first so no intention to take her music into profession. Or, it may not be so straight forward for her and family, like some of you on this thread are experiencing, and may be making the hardest decision.

Fedup: have you started theory, some kids might like it. Mine said its really interesting and logical. We were crap with sight reading and really stuck with it until we studied theory back in year 3. She said the theory really made her to understand and be able to read the music. She only did G5 theory by then, we would do G8 theory one day in secondary.

Thanks Taggie, I had read the requirements since last time we nearly failed scales because she was asked to play hands separately and she didnt know that when she practised. Another “small” problem however makes us always at the border of fail and pass aural is the singing bit. She just refuses to sing point blank and the mark was lost(however it must be little).

The problem for us with scales is she finds them truly boring and if it is boring/non-challenging then she doesnt put her mind in it and the hours wasted because she sits when she was asked but not (really) learns anything. Anyway, we did an hour solid tonight. I got home at 6.30 and put the todler to bed at 7.30 and sat down with her for a solid 1 hour. I must say I yawned endlessly as she was just playing couple of passages over and over again. I am completely non-musical and it has been a long day for me. Through this exam I just realised one thing that it has been a great decision to get a silent piano, I dont think anyone on our street would tolerate our scale practice.

Well done to Green and mini for your great effort! It must have been a long day for you, but also for your DD.

I know it's not a great advice, but since miniGreen is suffering so much on learning scales, if she really really hates it with passion, then you should know that you can still pass, quite comfortably, as long as the pieces are done well. I know someone who managed to pass G8 by totally focusing on the pieces (so crappy marks for the rest, but pass is pass!). If she enjoys playing the pieces, you may let her focus on polishing them? Then, at least preparing for exam is not a total torture for her so won't remove all the joy of playing.

As I said it's not a great advice and no way I am encouraging but just another way to tackle the situation.

Kutik it’s hard but in the end I think it’s a decision that has to come from the child. They will know what they want to do. I remember a girl at school who was really talented at music. Her parents thought it was a waste of time to study as a degree. She applied for law as they wanted and switched to Music as soon as she got there!

I think that is right Loose. If the child/young adult wants to pursue music it will be completely obvious and if there is significant doubt probably means they shouldn't. My DS at the moment can't imagine doing anything else. He just lives and breathes music. If that every changes it will be time for a plan B. My DDs on the other hand love music and are very accomplished but it doesn't consume them in the same way.

Yes, but, how much a dreamy 15-16 years old would know what they want now would make them happy in future? If a child is absolutely certain and so determined, he/she should be given a chance to pursue their dream no matter how risky it is. When they realise it was not what they thought, or things didn't go well, they can still be adjusted, yes. But, it's still very scary for the parents. Especially if the child shows other talent which would offer more stable career and income.

Re, sight reading, DS didn't get any training for sight reading, as in practising purposely by using text books. Both piano and violin teachers were not big on it. Yet it's been regarded as one of his strength. However, I am not sure if it came more natural to him than others. It may be because of the way he was introduced to sight-reading discipline.

As soon as he started learning piano, he was given new pieces to learn almost every week by the piano teacher. I was wondering if the teaching was alright because at some points I felt it was more quantity than quality. But looking back, I am certain that helped his sight reading tremendously. He was basically forced to read new pieces all the time. And because the lesson started this way from the day 1, DS didn't question for the amount of new pieces he was receiving.

I am not sure if that was the teacher's conscious tactic (suppose yes). Anyway she's never ever used those sight reading practice books in a lesson, nor asked us to buy for home practice, even prior to an exam. It'd been done by the weekly homework given by her.

So I would say the key to improve sight-reading is to play lots of different pieces, lots and lots of them. Like you read newspaper rather than a novel.

Thankfully, it slowed down and he gets longer pieces to study for a longer period now, as if the teaching has shifted from quantity to quality.

He has no problem with violin's sight reading thanks to the piano teacher. I suppose any pianist will find single lined sight reading much less frightening.

Green get her to play back the aural rather than sing it. It's worth about 4 marks, so needs to be done. They don't advertise the fact that you can play rather than sing, but you can, and I do!

I was meaning to suggest play back also. It's probably the best way for reluctant singers.

Kutik it was interesting last year that none of the very talented muscicians at ds's school went onto university to study music ( even those who at ds's age were convinced that that was what they would do) this is why we are working very hard at keeping all of his options open things change but whatever he decides ds will have had some amazing experiences because of his passion for music

I read some interesting research recently that said that students who get all A* at GCSE s (or equivalent) actually do less well later on in life than students who don't; the theory being that the majority of jobs require you to specialise in one area, so students who are all-rounders and have never focused on just one area of learning are actually disadvantaged. (I think I've got that right - I'll try to find a link.)

I decided very young ( around 10) that all I wanted to do was music. My ds has already said, at 11, that he doesn't want to be a musician. Cliche as it sounds, I think musicians (like actors, dancers, artists etc) are born, not made.

Kutik it was interesting last year that none of the very talented muscicians at ds's school went onto university to study music

I think teachers and other adults probably unconsciously do a lot to deter good students from pursuing music.

DD has basically been conditioned into thinking that good students in France do a "classe préparatoire" rather than anything artistic.

It wasn't always like this. I was a good all rounder (straight As at A level back when this was rare) who went to art school. But in the 1980s you could afford to do 4 years at art school with fees paid and a full grant then change your mind if it didn't work out (which was the case for me, I'm an economist now ). Much more difficult nowadays when 3-4 years of vocational music study will cost you the best part of £50k including living expenses.

floot my DDs ballet teacher said she remembers the day, aged 9, when she decided her career plan to dance & run a ballet school. She had the business plan by 11. She said the only person who believed her was her mum. And says she looks at my DD and totally believes my DDs plans.

I'd add that of the adolescents we know here in France who will definitely pursue music, one is a wunderkind already studying with a known pianist/composer (was already beyond diploma level at age 9 - i saw him play at a concert where he made Liszt and one of the hardest Chopin études look easy), and the other dropped out of school to pursue music and was/is homeschooled - hasn't and probably won't take any formal academic exams though he is pretty bright. The latter is now in the French conservatoire system, in the stream intended for professional musicians, he's either the same age as DD (16) or maybe one year older.

Trumpet, I always think it's so important for children, especially teens, to have something they are passionate about and committed. It enriches their life and also protects them (well, more likely) from unwanted temptations they may encounter. So it's so amazing and fortunate for DCs to have found one and enjoy the opportunities fully. I agree to keep as many options open as possible, because a tool to make living (money!) and passion are not always equal.

Floot, I think you (and your DS) are lucky to know what you want (or don't want) for sure from a very young age. But I wonder if many of us are so fortunate like that.

For instance, DS has started telling me what he wants to do - he doesn't name the profession but just tells me 'what he is going to do' with more details. Obviously my 10 years old doesn't know all the professions or lifestyles available. He is not informed fully yet. He is speaking out of his very limited experience and knowledge. I can't really take his words too seriously no matter how passionate he appears to be.

I am aware though that there are children who 'know' and can 'show' how determined they are (like you). But mine is a typical 10 years old.

mini, that's fantastic! Keep that teacher!
I just knew I wanted to play the flute, from my first lesson. My parents weren't musical, but they went with it and no-one ever questioned it. I look back sometimes and still can't believe that I managed to achieve what I always wanted to do - I feel incredibly lucky. I do have a few regrets, in that my parents had no knowledge so perhaps didn't push for certain things, but they weren't to know.

With regards to high-flyers not going into music, ds took part in a competition at the weekend and the 10 year old who won highly commended and also most promising pianist from all the competitors, also sings, plays the violin and is a junior European chess champion! Incredibly impressive but I do wonder which path she will peruse; I suspect it will be academic, although I know absolutely nothing about her abilities in the classroom...just a hunch.

I am really quite surprised by how young musicians have moved on since I started learning many years ago. I passed grade 8 at 12, which was fairly exceptional back then, to such an extent that when I started JD, I had to tread water in a way while my friends caught up. Certainly I have professional colleagues that didn't actually start playing until they were 13 or 14.
It's easy to get caught up in the rush to get through ABRSM exams but I'm not sure what's to be gained from doing so? Ds only started lessons at 9, which seems late for a string player. It's tricky; he's made fantastic progress but is obviously less advanced than children that have been playing since they were 4 or 5. It seems to matter now but I really don't think it will make much difference when he is 15 - I think the playing field levels out more past grade 8, other than in the rare cases of prodigies.

If the child/young adult wants to pursue music it will be completely obvious and if there is significant doubt probably means they shouldn't.
herts, I'm not so sure anymore. I am with mistigiri on this. This was true maybe thirty years ago, when tyoung people could afford a decent rent and enjoy unemployment benefits whilst instead of looking for a job they were practising and rehearsing (what would the British music scene had been without the dole?). Also, if you made a mistake with your degree, it was "oh well, I was wrong". Now it's "I was wrong and I am 50K in debt".
I finished school with my country IB equivalent of 11A. When I said I wanted to do a Fine Arts Degree two of my teachers were literally crying, they called my parents to push me to architecture. My parents said I was free to pursue my passions. It was the late 80's, money was growing on trees back then, my country was booming (green* you may not recall any of this as you were still a baby ). Young people were less subjected to the doom, the news, the pessimism, the cuts, the insane property boom, the competitiveness of the market and the technological shift of the professional world. So I ended up doing Art paying no more for fees than the price of a Southern Rail ticket. Then I did a 3 years of another "useless" and "creative" Masters in New York all paid by a scholarship from my local government which no longer exists after the crash. I clocked 8 years of university for almost nothing and started life with zero debt. If I hadn't felt so free back then money wise I may be an architect now... mhm damn

On the primary book leavers book, DS had to put what he wanted to do when he grew up. He wrote "professional musician". So it is very likely that that's what he will end up being, in one guise or another, through one route or another. I believe Floot is right, he is disadvantaged by being an all rounder and actually caring a lot about his grades and working hard for every subject. But that's his nature and his natural compulsion. He has never asked to go to specialist school because of his academic interests. You are who you are and you have to find your place in life.

thanks for your thoughts
mistigri he isn't dyslexic and his eyesight is great

We had a long chat last night.....I think it's partly because he started in treble clef ( which he can read well still) and then switched to bass clef 18 months ago. He tells me he still in his head does bass clef to treble clef conversion and then works out what note to play.... so essentially if he sees a "b" on the bass clef he then transposes that into whatever that is in treble clef and then he knows what note to play on the trombone. Unsuprisingly this makes it really slow and he often confuses himself.

I've downloaded the bass cat app ( he prefers app stuff to books) and we are going to start with lots of practice- starting with super easy stuff.

thanks for your advice

If I had paid for my degree maybe I'd be able to post without so many mistakes

Kutik , absolutely! In the majority of cases, children don't know what they want to do or what they don't want to do. I do believe, however, that for a small number of careers, such as I mentioned, you are born to do it and just know it's your destiny to at least try. There's no chance of becoming a musician if the seeds aren't there early on; it's not something you can decide to do later on in life or retrain for. I can't think of any colleagues who didn't choose to be musicians from very early on, except for some singers but that's because you have to wait for your voice to mature to see what you've got.