Grade 8? Really?

[pugsandseals]

Went to a school informal concert yesterday- aim, some chamber music on just a couple of rehearsals. Was shocked at how many young supposedly grade 8+ players there who looked completely out of their depth! Why is it that so many pushy parents are so keen to get their kids through the grades as early as possible at the expense of ensemble skills? Some of these kids are in National orchestras & bands but can't sight read or listen to each other for toffee! Appallingly low parental turn out too. As if to prove the point that ensemble is unimportant. Sorry for the rant, I just don't see how this can be the norm!

In answer to questions, yes many are in national orchestras & yet still can't read to a high level (I don't think the intensive week long courses these orchestras run come anywhere close to the level of orchestral training we got back in the days of really good local youth orchestra weekly rehearsals). Just really interesting to see that the students that really stood out in that school chamber music evening were those who have been members of local not national groups & were not on the 'did my grade 8 age 12' list!

Very interesting thread!

Sight reading is important, but i also think a problem with grades is that you get no teaching at all in how to play by ear, or how to improvise (different things, obviously! but both reliant on being able to play without a written score) Is that because it's just not regarded as an important skill for serious musicians? It's actually well worth being able to do if you're an amateur -which of course the vast majority of those learning an instrument are destined to be!

Very surprise ! The player in NYO is almost professional. Not only technical but also musical. Can't believe the standard is that low.

Still, I feel there is too little information to make a fair judgement of the situation...
I personally don't see anything wrong with grade 8 at 12, however I agree that it is not the option for anyone.

OP, in your opinion, why do you think that children form national level orchestras don't have good sight reading and can not play well in ensemble?

Oh god, don't add playing by ear and improv to grade 4 piano, I'll never pass it!! I can just about manage the aural exercises.
Improvisation skills depend on which instrument and which board. Usual ABRSM exams are aimed mainly at classical repertoire where improvisation isn't required. However, I think their jazz exams are different and other boards definitely have scope for improvisation. I think it depends on what kind of music you want to play.

Thanks loose that is interesting about the other boards. Worth bearing in mind if you have a dc who you think would enjoy playing, say, piano, but won't ever be brilliant - there's a lot to be said for learning to improv or play by ear if you just want to play for fun.

I'm sure you'd be able to pass! (with a bit of teaching, obv!) Imv learning only to play from a score means you never really learn to predict what note/sound you want and find the relevant key (on the piano - it may be different on other instruments), so you're left floundering without a score, even for really simple pieces. But I realise that may be a controversial point of view...

Ah, but that's why doing lots of sight reading practice is very important on piano - and all those scales! It's true that you have to develop the skill to be always looking ahead.
I would be happy to do improv in my lessons, just feel too old to cope with it in an exam!

The ABRSM Jazz exams are very different to the others. You can only go as far as grade 5 and doing grade 5 jazz means you don't need to do their grade 5 theory as its so different to their practical exams. Before being forced to give up I was going to do grade 1 jazz, I found it much harder though more interesting than their other practicals.

I've heard other exam boards vary a lot and usually easier compared to ABRSM but I've never done exams with the others (no examiners for other boards where I am) but I've had a look at pieces and they seem easier.

Onlymusic- because sight reading & ensemble skills are something to be practiced weekly not something that can be picked up on a weeks residential 2 or 3 times per year! As I said, as a child I played in orchestras for 5 hours per week plus did duets every week with my teacher plus school ensembles. Most county music services are gone so can't provide all this on a weekly basis anymore

I hadn't realised how lucky my DC are then, with teachers that have always featured duets in lessons. DS2 does a piano duet class in our Festival too. And they play each week in the Music Service Concert Band and could do Orchestra, plus a wide variety of school ensembles. And their teachers don't rattle through every grade!

I've just filled in DS2s application form for NYO Inspire though, as I think it still has a lot to offer.

who you think would enjoy playing, say, piano, but won't ever be brilliant
You can't decide for your child. They have to decide how brilliant they want to become. How brilliant they become will depend of much they work at it. Brilliancy comes with lots and lots of practice. Pieces, scales, sight-reading, etudes, listening to the greats, wanting to challenge themselves. Again and again.

Exams should not be the end of it all but they provide a structure for progress which is useful for many students and teachers. For orchestral instruments, I agree weekly ensemble practice is a must, but together with individual lessons and progress which can be assesed by exams or teacher. It's an individual choice. But exams or not exams, the only thing that counts is the work, the hours and the quality of the teaching.

I've heard other exam boards vary a lot and usually easier compared to ABRSM but I've never done exams with the others (no examiners for other boards where I am) but I've had a look at pieces and they seem easier.
Trinity is definitely not easier. Rockschool is hard to compare because it's very specific, but their drumkit syllabus is at the level of Trinity Guildhall.

Fair enough. I was quite a long time ago I was doing exams and looking at different boards.

Trinity Guildhall is certainly on a par with ABRSM. There may be fewer scales, but they mark their pieces in a different and stricter way.

Pugs- many members of the NCO play in the regionals which meet weekly (AFAIAA, we're too far away).
Maybe the children you describe in your OP were just being teenagers, rather than operating at full musical capacity?

A key aspect of the Nco audition is sightreading, so I'm quite surprised by what you saw especially as Nco standard is extremely high. I do have a 12 year old, grade 8 violinist, who is a member of the Nco age banded orchestra and regionals. She is lucky enough to have a teacher who courages ensemble playing, so is very comfortable with sight reading And playing in a group

We do in general seem a bit obsessed by grades. I have experience of Japan where grades are not the norm. There are pros and cons but have seen some great young musicians. Also I get the sense from specialist music schools that really not that important per se. Learning to be a musician is what is important.