Grade 8? Really?

[pugsandseals]

Went to a school informal concert yesterday- aim, some chamber music on just a couple of rehearsals. Was shocked at how many young supposedly grade 8+ players there who looked completely out of their depth! Why is it that so many pushy parents are so keen to get their kids through the grades as early as possible at the expense of ensemble skills? Some of these kids are in National orchestras & bands but can't sight read or listen to each other for toffee! Appallingly low parental turn out too. As if to prove the point that ensemble is unimportant. Sorry for the rant, I just don't see how this can be the norm!

I think peer to peer assessment is good in these circumstances, but not sure again how this would work with an LA working on a shoe string of human resources.
dd said she has learned so much from visiting the various ensembles in the school.
They have up to 2 hours lunch and during this time they have to go and visit a performance class, any ensemble other than their own dept, so many times a term. They have a card they have to have signed off.
She loves going to strings, Brass, percussion and the Symphony Orchestra and Chamber choir.
unfortunately, she says everyone wants to come and hear her Jazz ensembles, so they get quite full
I know it's a different type of school with far more opportunities for the children, but my point is they see the importance of an all round musical education, the importance of the emerging musician rather than the children being good at operating an instrument.
Bearing in mind they must know what they are talking about, pugs is right.

Dd is only lower grade so can't comment but loves band, partly because of practice but a lot of it is getting to perform with a group which she loves. Sight reading is not her strongest point, mainly because she likes to do what she wants with the music in front of her rather than make it sound how it's meant to. She loves it when they get new pieces at band though, she tells me it's different to sight reading in an exam as you get a conductor!

It's good to read this - I'm going to save it for when I get anxious about ds not being pushed through grades (he learns in a different way to his school colleagues who are on a more Grade focused track at school)!

As another poster has said, Grade 8 is not a high level. It may possibly show that you have learnt the absolute basics for your instrument. It is a long way off the level at which the conservatoires will consider anyone.

Some teachers push pupils through grades too quickly and they don't play any pieces than the three per grade selected. They therefore have a very limited knowledge of music. This is made worse by the main exam boards publishing books of "exam music". So, for instance, a pupil may learn the first movement of a sonata for a couple of terms for an exam, but neither the teacher nor the pupil will think it worthwhile to study the rest of the sonata. It's like learning the first two phrases of a song but not the rest. I've also come across teachers who don't encourage their pupils to find out about the lives of the composers they are studying, or to independently explore other works by them.

Sightreading and ensemble skills should go hand in hand. It is easy for teachers to get two or three pupils together for duet/trio sessions, and to make playing duets a regular part of each lesson, but some do not.

Having good ensemble and sightreading skills is far more likely to encourage a pupil to carry on playing after school than a piece of paper suggesting they are of a certain standard, but unfortunately some parents like to boast about their little darlings.

I know exactly what you mean. My music teacher used to say that grades were only the beginning of learning how to play

There seems to be a bit of pressure around to get through Grades before GCSEs/Alevels, which probably doesn't help. Not a philosophy we subscribed too.

My DC have played in bands in and out of school since they started playing, and DS1 has just joined uni wind bands, giving him an instant social life.

I must admit I'm a bit buffled. According to this thread, the UK music learning style does not produce good ensemble players and sight-readers. Yet when I talk to professional musicians, both in the UK and abroad, there is a consensus about two things:
1 - The UK does not produce as many international level famous soloists as other countries (Russia, Germany, etc)
2 - However, it is renowned worldwide for its orchestras.
These two undeniable facts are, according to the experts, because the UK learning style produces mainly ensemble players and sight-readers.

drummersmum, this is true, UK's musical education is pretty much orchestra oriented. I don't know about Germany but I know about Russia - they are soloists oriented, whoever plays in the orchestra is just an unsuccessful soloist :) I highly recommend 'Unfinished Journey' by Yehudi Menuhin - he makes some interesting comparison of two systems.
I also know some Russian people and according to them-sight reading is not taught very well in Russia, unlike the UK.

Article about music training in Russia
www.gramophone.co.uk/features/focus/the-agony-and-the-ecstasy-my-musical-training-in-soviet-russia

Thanks for your link, its a very interesting read. It reminds me of the time my father in law studied in Russia for 10 years. He often tells us the story now which we still find it fascinating listening it numerous times

Anyone know the percentage of homegrown musician in these top orchestra ?

I was grade 7ish at 18. A lot of people I knew had grade 8 on piano and their main instrument, plus g8 theory, before we left school. It seemed to be virtually compulsory for applying to medicine in particular. can you tell there were pushy parents there

Some of the people I knew were paying ££££ to go on tour abroad etc and yet had no real ensemble ability- not looking at the conductor, each other, or the quartet leader. I think the ABRSM exams are a load of shite, it's all about playing the same 3 pieces for a year which sucks the joy out of it all.

I know my violin teacher has quite a few ex-pupils in top orchestras both in the UK and all over the world. Mind you we're from Australia ... When my sister first moved to London she developed a stronger Australian accent than she'd ever had before because she was spending so much time with other Australian musicians ...!

I put my son through grade 5 violin to give him a benchmark - which was useful - but it actually stalled overall progress for quite a while. I don't want him to do another till grade 8. He did piano exams grade 3-5 and again is having an exam break and may well only do grade 8 there. I'm now teaching violin and the reason I've kept on with violin having always viewed myself as a "serious amateur" is fundamentally because of all the orchestral work I've done over the years, and more recently chamber music. My teaching approach is "music focussed" rather than "book focussed" if that makes sense, and I'm thrilled that my students have access to orchestras to play in, even the most recent beginner - I'll leave systematic music reading to happen in that context and just deal with what we need when we need it otherwise.

That's a fascinating article! British orchestral players are renowned for sight reading and operating on smaller quantities of rehearsal than our European counterparts - not sure if that's to do with the grade system or the conservatoire/orchestral training though.

Interesting reading.

NotAMusician members of London Philharmonic
www.lpo.org.uk/about/musician-biographies/

English National Ballet
www.ballet.org.uk/the-company/orchestra/members/

However, I don't feel there is an obvious explanation of a number of homegrown to foreign musicians as, say, homegrown musicians may prefer to be self-employed and have various assignments with different orchestras (I know some) whilst foreigners may need a secure employment with one orchestra for immigration status reasons. This is not to mention that English musicians may move to States for the very same reason as European and Asian musicians move into here.
But I don't know for sure, I am just speculating

There are pros and cons to any system, but I feel that English system is quite good. There is no rigorous training like in other countries which means children enjoy learning music, they have opportunities to try various instruments, there are plenty of orchestras - from pretty basic school ones to high profile orchestras like NCO or NYO, various performance festivals, students can move at their own pace when learning, and those who prove to be talented can enroll to specialist music schools. Many kids still play when grown up.

The major flaws in my opinion are - no unification in teaching and cost of lessons.

I guess, to some extent, it depends why the DC is learning an instrument. I know dcs who are grade 7-8 before they leave primary who have no intention of playing in orchestras. One parent told me, she just wanted her ds to get his grade 8 so that they could concentrate on secondary school entry, and then he could quit!

Rather reassuringly, our local music school starts group ensembles as soon as possible. DS started after 5 lessons, and I think is picking up orchestral skills as he learns his instrument.

Btw, the article above mentions Heinrich Neuhaus as one of the greatest Russian pianists and teachers, his book is available on amazon (don't really know if it is any good, a have a copy from charity shop but have not had time to read it yet :))
www.amazon.co.uk/Art-Piano-Playing-Heinrich-Neuhaus/dp/1871082455/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1476392306&sr=8-1&keywords=Heinrich+Neuhaus

It's an interesting discussion. I am always amazed by kids getting to grade 8 by the end of primary! Mine are the more usual ones who sort of hope to get there by the end of secondary! however, they like playing in groups much more than taking exams and funnily enough they are very good at sight reading.
I think the clue was in the OP's mention of little rehearsal time. I knew an amateur orchestra in London that sounded as at least as good as some professional ones and the reason wasn't because they were grade 8 or above (though they were), it was due to the experience of playing together every week in concerts and rehearsals - they just knew what everyone else was doing and what the conductor wanted. And they were bothered enough to listen to his critique of a concert after the peformance! i imagine what the OP experienced was a group of young soloists who happened to be sitting together and coincidentally playing the same piece but weren't really used to playing together!

Oh, I really enjoyed the Russian article as well. Like the idea that the Bolsheviks wanted to completely overturn all aspects of society - but not ballet and music!

Finished reading the discussion...
Feel a bit strange about the points above.... Firstly-what is the problem with grades? Grades are just the milestones. I am to blame teaching for quick and unnecessary grades. It is not a problem with grades or ABRSM-it is a problem with teachers who don't build students repertoire and skills and just teach them three grade pieces (for one year? as said above). If it takes one year to practice three pieces than student is not ready to play at that level, surely? Is'n it up to the teacher to choose various pieces and develop student's practical music skills? Surely neither parents nor students tell teachers how to teach? Parents are responsible too though-it is their duty to choose the right and competent teacher for their dc.

Secondly, it is strange to hear that kids are in National orchestras and cannot play together or sight read (don't they test it in a first place when auditioning for major kids orchestras?). And are they supposedly or grade 8+ level? I mean how correct is information about their grades? There can be hundreds of reasons why they didn't sound well
-some could be quite low in grades
-some just started to play in ensemble
-some were learning by Suzuki method
-they didn't have enough rehearsals
-they didn't practice their pieces in between rehearsals which is important too
-could be that OP just was a bit harsh? :)

Sorry, don't mean to be harsh to anyone but this what sprung into my mind whilst reading all the answers....

EllyMayClampett I think it was fair that your dd was lead violin in spite of lower grades. Maturity is important for this role and this what your dd obviously had!

I think it depends on teachers. When I learnt the grades were a natural progression, not goals, and everyone was to play in school orchestra and sing in choir once they were at grade two standard, we were also told to join local orchestras outside of school as well - if we didn't he refused to teach us. The exam pieces were far from the only ones learnt and the teacher always used other exam pieces for sight reading - which worked well and meant I did well in that section (!) and tested every scale every week.

My teacher drummed into every student/pupil he only taught music techniques NOT how to pass exams (got boring very fast!). My teacher was tough, most people gave up and I wanted to many many times but being honest his teachings have helped me in many ways. He died years ago.

I can be very harsh when listening to concerts, not delibrately but I'm aware I do it. Partly it's because I can no longer play (disability) and want to but also the teaching I had means I can hear when mistakes are being made and cannot ignore them - our teacher would regularly have us listen recordings and ask us if we could hear any mistakes!

I agree with youOnly and I must admit some of the comments about grade8 meaning nothing make me laugh. The OP was presumably describing a school ensemble? Our school is lucky to pull musicians off the football and rugby pitches and no one is in NCO orNYO!
Grade 8 to me looks like a huge achievement.I am still doing the same 3 pieces for grade4 but I find doing them does mean I can pick up other things more easily.
I keep working on technique with my teacher - if we weren't 't doing an exam there's a point where she'd say good enough and we'd leave it, which is a shame.
I think it was lack of rehearsal time that affected the performance the OP heard not the grade system and I think any group of musicians who aren't used to playing together can sound poor - possible exception being jazz.