May/ June Music and Musicians Thread

[Wafflenose]

Welcome, everyone. I can't believe we need a new thread already, but I'm delighted that they now seem so popular!

I'm Waffle, I'm a music teacher and I have two daughters - Goo (10) who plays the recorder, flute, piccolo (a bit) and started the piano a month ago, and Rara (8) who isn't as musically inclined but plays the cello and recorder. She is plodding (very) slowly towards Grade 3 on both.

We're going on holiday this weekend, so will have to have a good read when I get back. For now, I'll wind the thread up and let it do its stuff.

Sorry, the whole point of that rambling anecdote is that I don't believe any instrument is easier, just that individuals find certain instruments easier for them!
Also, just blatantly egging Green on with her piano lessons!
Also completely agree with Mistigri about second instruments for very young children. i was actually shocked how much quicker DS1 picked up bass guitar aged 13.

Prada 4x 90 minute sessions whilst on holiday, wow that is dedicated!

Really struggle with practice here, my DD (8) is taking G5 theory next week and G3 piano the week after. Lucky to get 20 mins of each done daily, and G7 violin prep is definitely falling by the wayside

I hope miniprada's level of dedication gets her to her chosen secondary school - went through that with DS (11) last year and luckily he got into a local grammar and he will be continuing with 'serious' music outside of school.

Prada
best of luck with music scholarships. Our story is very different from others. We are in London and DS got 11+ music scholarship offers from all the schools he applied to (five in total) even though he was Grade 5 on both instruments and played Grade 5 level pieces on the auditions. I am only telling you this to illustrate that it is possible to achieve and to encourage you to go for it!! I should warn you that life as a music scholar is quite demanding. But of course rewarding too.

besidethesea I seem to disagree slightly with other posters as to starting instruments early. Every child is different, so I won´t pretend to have all answers. But I believe that an early start helps forming good practice habits (it becomes part of their life like washing teeth, tying up shoe laces, reading before bed, etc). I also think that music has the biggest impact in a child's brain when that brain is at its earliest stages, no matter what instrument they learn. There have been endless studies about that. But I am an all carrot and no stick parent because I will never forget DS' tearful eyes sitting at a piano with a Russian teacher whom of course we bid farewell to the next day. And I don´t think two instruments at early stages are a problem, but then again I understand why others might feel different...

Thank you all - you are all so generous with your time in replying. It is really helpful reading all your experiences.

At the moment I am thinking I should get piano lessons (we have a currently out of tune upright) - though I am frankly scared about 2 lines of music when I can't even read one! And leave DS to what he wants .

He would like to swap recorder for flute, but I am currently insisting he carries on for another year. I guess I am worried that he will just butterfly between every instrument possible. In an ideal world it would be great for him to try every possible instrument to see what he clicks with.

I am just rambling now.

Thanks drummersmum and musicathome for your experiences. Yes we are applying inlondon and southeast. The violin teacher is very experienced with scholarship auditions so is going to prepare something over the Summer with miniprada at a suitable level (gd7 I think) which should give her a sporting chance. Miniprada will also continue with local orchestra and festivals/comps which should also demonstrate a commitment. She is also going to retry for NCO in October so fingers crossed... We are both aware it's a slim chance but two of the schools don't offer academic scholarships so it's music or nothing to keep the costs down!

I personally agree that starting later could achieve faster progress (on piano and other instruments). However in our case starting piano at 6 got DD into a routine of practising every day, enjoying her music, and the progress is not to be dismissed, she did achieve grade 3 after 2 and a half years of piano without being pushed to extremes, I just ensured that practice happens on daily basis, with the odd days off when it wasn't possible for various reasons. Yes she could have started at 10 and get to grade 3 in one year of at 12-14 and get to grade 5 in a couple of years probably but I have a feeling that her commitments would have been somewhere else by that age. She would have also missed on years of music enjoyment, we never pushed for grades and achievement, I never asked her teacher about the next exam, it is all her and her teacher's decision. If she would have taken 2-3 years to grade 1 I would have still been happy with it as it gives her a hobby and a commitment outside of school.

Now her teacher is talking about grade 5 before she is 10 and I am proud of Dd's achievements even though on this thread is not out of ordinary but we did establish that the DCs on this thread are more musically inclined and out of the ordinary world with involved parents.

Also primary school is the time when academics are not a main priority, homework is not too time consuming so there is time for other commitments.

On when to start second/third instrument the motivation of the child and what goes on at home musically really matters.
My eldest DS started guitar when he was 7 (Year3), then added horn a year later (Year4), he was about grade 3 on his first instrument, then piano when he was 11 (Year 6). What was important, maybe was that he chose the instruments himself, we just organised lessons. DH plays piano and guitar at home.
My other DS (8) started with horn (6 years old with home lessons given by his brother, so that they can both go to brass band) then added piano about 6 months later (paid for lessons) and then cello with his school this year (8years old). He is very motivated and in the space of less than 2 years is now on Grade 3 horn, Grade 2 piano and not sure with cello but possible Grade 2, but no exams planned.
With all these going on at home my youngest (5) has started violin (oh the noise) and middle one "teaches" him horn when they remember.
For Grade 5 theory my eldest DS just read the book and did papers, but no specific paid-for lessons. Now he teaches my middle DS (8) with the book (and I pay him, not much) so that middle DS can eventually join the concert band once he passes Grade 6 horn. But agree it gets very expensive with three children on couple of instruments each...
I wanted to ask with younger kids (8/9) how easy is it for them to pass Grade 5 theory? There are quite a few things for them to learn...

Also primary school is the time when academics are not a main priority, homework is not too time consuming so there is time for other commitments

A very very good observation Fleur, and very true.

Prada, we were on holiday last week and practice was slightly better too(however about 45mins solidly for 4 days, so its about half of mini Prada). I find it easier while on holiday for violin as its portable and I am off work and with her. Best of luck to MiniPrada, we will be in your shoes(regarding 11+) in couple of years.
Musicdoc: we are having the same exam schedule as yourself, 8yrs old(yr3), G5 theory next Sat and G3 violin couple of days after. I am much more worried on the violin though, theory past papers results havent been too bad. I have guesses coming to stay this weekend and I feel like "this isnt a right time" however I keep it quite as I have always (pretending) trying to have everything happening as usual for her not to feel being pressurised.

My daughter started with piano too and it took her more than 2 years for grade 1(admittedly I had no idea about grades for the first 1.5 yrs-my intention was only for her having fun. Our violin teacher was then mostly singing songs and having fun time with her rather than any proper lesson. We didnt care about progress. We started violin beginning last year when she was 7. She learnt grade 1 within 4 months, passed with a solid merit end of last Nov(just a mark or two shy from distinction due to aural and sight reading). Grade 3 is in more than 1 week, we are only seriously practising it the last couple of months or so as before we were focusing on piano March exam. I have so much admiration for children playing multiple instrument at the same time because we cant do it. We have stopped piano lesson for 2 months now to focus on theory and violin. It is partially because we have 1 teacher for everything. Had we have violin and pino teachers separately then the non exam instrument wint be forgotten.

I think with a second instrument started early, it's a bit different if it's an instrument the child is very keen to play. If the parent is choosing then it's too soon.

It will depend on the child too of course. My dd at 7 was basically not very focused and had a short attention span ...

DD started instrument 1 (recorder) at 5, then toyed briefly with a second (harpsichord - her recorder teacher's husband makes them!) a couple of years later but she just wasn't motivated enough so we quickly pulled the plug. She later started guitar age nearly 12 (self-taught in the initial stages) and then sax and piano at 13. Progress has been faster on each new instrument.

It would have been good to start piano a bit earlier but I'm not sure she would be any further on (she'd just have a larger repertoire).

Prada, nice work being done whilst you are holidaying...really impressive, and the time now to entrance time will fly by!

I would also second comments made by likes of drummersmum and others on going for it re music scholarships, You have nothing to lose ok, except the prep mini now has to do to

We were in your position last year with DD. Whilst it's true the competition gets fiercer in London re children's musical achievements and can depend on the prospect cohort applications for entry year, there is more to gain than just the scholarship/exhibition award etc.

One v selective girls' school had their music open day very close to the application deadline, resulting in most applicants already submitting their forms. The HoM in the closing Q&A commented that so long as the qualifying grades (or equivalent) had been met, then that was what was important. Then proceeded to state that we were not to waste their time by sending any music teacher reports or references...they would not be read. All the reports would say was how wonderful your DDs were so pointless. (Fair point, but most switched on teachers would indicate their pupils' strengths, achievements, wider music accomplishments as well as improvements areas moving forward? Ours did at least). When challenged on how the school would then determine how to short list to audition (subject to academics being passed first), the response was "I would just know" . Most children who had not gone down the exams route would have the equivalent standard supported by their teacher, but if these were being discarded, then what...? That's the challenge we parents face on doing exams by rote for these tick box reasons unless you are applying to a radical thinking school on music potential/achievement.

The point of my long waffle (sorry) is that when your DD is undergoing the selection process (exams, interviews, auditions etc) then each visit you make to the school gives you another layer of insight, aside from the glossy pitches at open day. The tables will turn from is she good enough to do we want her to go here (I know it's hard to believe now, but you will be there) and how the school has been with her, courted her and valued what she brings will all play a big part. From if she's awarded free lessons, do you want her to do do them at school (if done privately currently), will they allow her to do both if you prefer to keep them private, will she enjoy music life there based on your visits etc etc. The extra visits are like gold, and help you make that final decision when final offers come in. And of course anything off the fees help! Even without a scholarship offer, you'll know more about the music life there as she will still be contributing at a high level, and her application will have added value from the outset.

Sorry...way too long, but just to add hope for those in your position now and down the line!

Loose: I learnt violin as a child when I was 7 yrs old however cant play at all now, cant read music so I count myself as nonmusical. I am a foreigner so in our language what we call for all musical terms were also very different in English. I decided to learn piano as I feel helpless when both the teacher and my daughter mentioning about what they had done, what they need to do, all technical terms. I am hoping I could help my second child better too(she has now stopped using the pencil trying to put through the piano keyhole now. When she sees the piano opened and the violin is on the floor then she jumps to them top speed. We tried (hard)to keep her away from them at the moment hopefully the excitement stays long until she is bigger. We heard "over the rainbow" sang well in tune when she was in het cot in her room(we used to be an all out of tune family until now), the elder sister only sang it once or twice, it must be the violin practice that she hears often during her sister's practice

Sorry about too many typos and with my rusty English during a very short lunch, hope you all can still understand of what I was trying to say

I feel lucky with our piano teacher, I know I keep going on about how great she is, but the fact that she insisted initially I sit in lessons and later on left it to my preference means that even though I don't play the piano I have kept up with the lessons knowledge. I can support DD if she is stuck onto something such as time signatures or dynamics in a piece. Sometimes the practice time after the lesson comes and DD forgets what the teacher asked for, reads her practice book, ignores it and turns to me.

I think this is the reason she wants me to sit close to her when she practises, sometimes I don't even open my mouth but she feels that she has somebody to turn to if needed.

Green I can see how the instruments are prioritised at different times having the same teacher for both piano and violin, can you not discuss a strict schedule with the teacher, 30 min piano, 30 min violin? I guess is hard when an exam is approaching as it is easily done to concentrate on it. Does she still practice her piano just to keep it going?

We found the perfect practice schedule for DD currently, she does clarinet first until she's tired and she starts making weird sounds, then piano and then back to clarinet to do the remaining exercises. It works amazingly well. And she didn't complain yet even though it takes close to 1.5 hours. She genuinely doesn't realise the time passing.

Prada and ealingwestmum again very selective boys school where my eldest now goes had similar criteria for music scholarship. There was also academic one, which he scored high enough to be call for (first 20 kids out of approx. 800 applicants).

For the music scholarship, I did not know this then but know now, that on paper (passed grades) you have to be about grade 7 and have a second/third instrument on a lower but still about Grade 5, to be even called to audition. Then if you get it, is another matter, but at least to get the chance to perform your pieces. If I knew this at the time I would not have applied for him as he was only grade 5 on two instruments. Also it is important what instruments they need for orchestra as essentially these will be required.
It is mindboggling, to me at least, that there are so many 10 year old kids (as audition happens in Jan Year 6) with Grade 6-7-8 on at least two instruments.

We only have 1 lesson a week and more than an hour is too much for her so we do 30mins violin and 30mins piano in the past. From Jan-March we used to spend most or all of the lesson time on the piano. Now we have 30mins on theory and 30mins on violin. I will be more strict once the exam is over, the non exam instrument should be played first then we will keep them better balanced.

Fleur: forgot to say, no she isnt practising piano now, she occasionally sits down when she likes it( and I feel like she misses it and wanted to do something with it), the last 2 months she sat down on it might be...4 times. I havent had that commitment to music yet, it costs us more time than anything we have ever done. For example today she will have to do a past paper and it normally takes her 1 hour, then 45 mins violin practice(which feels like nothing and she needs much more). I cant imagine she learns anything that hard and this has been almost every day the last nearly 2 months( we only started with theory mid-end of March however it was very little at first, only few hours at weekends).

It is mindboggling musicathome, the travesty is that some of those children would have achieved those higher grades without a deeper grounding of music beyond their pieces vs those with lower but more rounded musicality. But get shortlisted against the volume of applications unless the school takes into account a good application on grounds other than grades. A decent audition process will see beyond this but it would mean some very talented children slipping through the net, so catch 22 for some parents on jumping hoops for audition consideration.

I think G5 (lower for the more unusual/2nd instruments) is a very reasonable level of attainment for a 10 year old, obviously with those achieving higher. Thankfully, not all of London/UK is as restrictive as the ones we are referring to!

parents making their children jump hoops...of course we live the pain too

ealingsmum I find it amazing also and I do wonder if the grade 6/7 by 10 have done any other repertoire outside of the abrsm syllabus. On top of that they need to keep up with the high academic requirements, no?

Well DD will never be such a genius in a million years unless I book every minute of her day with music practice and academics. Not going to happen, I already feel an hour an a half a day dedicated to music practice is a lot for an 8 yo.

Maybe these kids are out of this world and can get there with 1-2 hours a day, my DD wouldn't. Well I never thought about trying it anyway so maybe she would but I quite enjoy the quiet 6-8 months without any music exams work, just playing various pieces.

Green it's really amazing how useful it is to learn an instrument when your children are learning - I am able to pass on tips about practice and the dreaded exams and I can hear the mistakes in scales and know how to find the arpeggio, all that kind of thing. I wouldn't have dredged up that knowledge from the past. I felt with piano that somehow a lot of things became clearer - on the other hand paying for your own music lessons is also a great motivator!
I love the idea of your little one singing 'Over the Rainbow' from her cot! I think she must be absorbing a lot of music during all those lessons!

Good luck Green, she'll be fine I'm sure. Embrace the house guests. Miniprada failed the G5 theory last term and she realises she didn't do enough so sometimes a failure early on is not a bad thing (although it does appear that mini green is getting much better scores )

I think we'll have to see re: musuc auditions what works but I am very happy to be taking on board all advice offered!

Although I played both instruments (piano and violin) to a high standard (piano) as a child I honestly couldn't play a note now. I also passed G5 theory but can't help with that either so I see myself as the role of creating time and opportunity to practice. I sit it on the violin lesson (1hr) as it is external but not piano (home) which can be 1 or two hours depending if her brother has (wants) a lesson or not. He plays for fun only.

Quick congratulations and very well done to Loose and Prada's DC!

My DS (10) has school exams next week (essentially assessments to decide sets for next year / progress towards CE) and so is up to his eyeballs in (academic) revision. His trumpet practice has fallen off sharply as a result, so he will be relying on the two - three weeks prior to the exam in early July to fine tune his pieces.

Musicathome: I can answer your question better once my daughter has sat for the test. My advice is why not start now, very little each week then see how it goes. We never heard of theory exam until I read on here is January(you wont believe how many clouds I am on in terms of all schools/homeworks/music grades etc before I joined mumsnet(an example was I didnt know what day my daughter homework has to be returned). Our teacher is a Russian who isnt familiar with abrsm( technically in term of practical he is good)so he tells me what he thinks however he isnt exam focused(or even if he wants to he isnt experienced). So basically in terms of theory my daughter has been learning herself, he checks her past papers and explains any difficult concepts if needed. To be honest, with an hour manytime the violin overuled the lesson, he however is brilliant in terms of communication

I played piano to a high grade when young and stopped for about 20 years. I've picked it up again and go for lessons about once a month. It's brilliant - basically I just practise what I want and my teacher helps me to play them better. Love it. I taught DS1 for a long time but now he's with a proper teacher and they seem to like each other. I don't meddle with his lessons though I wonder if the teacher expects me to help. I do sometimes just to point out that certain awkward passages are not awkward if you got your fingers to the right places at the right time. I'm still teach DS2, about 3 minutes a day!

But I'm learning so much by watching them learn and watching what their teachers do. It's all so much fun.