Spring/ Summer Music and Musicians Thread

[Wafflenose]

My children go back to school tomorrow, and it's my birthday this week, so it must be properly spring in the UK now, and time for a new thread! Please jump right in by telling us about your DCs' learning (or your own), or by asking any music/ music exam related questions you like. We have lots of experienced music parents and teachers on here, as well as lots of new ones.

I am a music teacher, and mum to Goo (10) and Rara (7). Goo started the recorder and flute when she was tiny (age 3 and 6 respectively), has recently added piccolo, but not very well yet, and is starting piano lessons in a couple of weeks. She has no exams this term, but will probably do Grade 6 Flute in the Autumn and Grade 8 Recorder next Spring. She plays in her school orchestra and recorder groups, South West Music School and NCO, and has her first concert with County Wind Band tonight, after a trial course. She hasn't auditioned to become a member yet, and might not for a few years yet, due to age and time factors.

Rara isn't so musically inclined - she prefers to read and draw, and is also very physically active. However, she is due to take her Grade 2 Cello exam this term, and Grade 3 Recorder in the Autumn - she's currently getting to grips with the treble and loving it!

at 15-245 min academic work.

I doubt my teenagers regularly do 15-25 mins homework a day. They do have longer days than British kids though, and DD tends to get stuff done in free periods at school (whereas DS saves it all up and then spends the last weekend of the holidays doing nothing but homework - and he doesn't have music practice as an excuse).

We have a public holiday on Thursday which means DD misses another piano lesson - I think she's had one in the last five weeks. Fortunately it seems that her audition at the conservatoire will be in June, rather than this month. It may still be a battle to get the Chopin done properly in time, but she has two easier pieces ready to go that would be more than adequate as her optional pieces.

Oh yes and I have sympathy with the transport problems that three cellos must involve dinosaur - it is bad enough with guitars! We have an estate car now which makes life a lot easier.

misti

I completely agree with you.
I don't think exams necessarily identify talent.
on paper my dd is not very good at all, certainly nothing spectacular.
She hasn't even done her grade 5 theory yet, so obviously not done practical exams passed grade 5.
In her audition she moved the panel to tears (voice) and played pieces well beyond gr5 and also improvised a Jazz standard.

She isn't an academic achiever and would never have passed an 11+ paper.
She has extra support with Maths and is currently being assessed for spld and ASD, ADHD and several others.

Get her in a practice room or on a stage and she comes to life.

exam
I believe they will practice if they want to do it.
My friend was the same with Ballet lessons which cost her quite a bit in the end.
When her dd was little the first time she said she couldn't be bothered she picked up her shoes and put them in a carrier bag to take to the charity shop.
her dd soon found her motivation to go to her class as she wanted to continue.

I'd threaten to sell the instruments/ stop lessons and put the ball in the dc court tbh.

Loving the new direction this discussion has taken. At this rate, I'll have to start a new thread every month. Anyway... we got Goo into music, precisely because she was twiddling her thumbs academically. Now in Year 5, she still is. She gets 3 lots of homework a week, and spellings, and probably spends a total of half a day on it, making it all look beautiful. But it's all very easy at the moment, so she can devote time to her instruments, and a bit of chess and netball (which she's hopeless at, but enjoys). Rara's real love is art, making things and anything involving a glue stick. Her teachers say she's bright, but despair of her results in spellings and times tables tests - I think she has slow processing and simply can't 'think fast' - but she also doesn't care. I can see her going the same way as a previous poster's niece, and following her heart. In the meantime, she is quite enjoying learning two instruments, has no intention of auditioning for SWMS or NCO, but likes the social opportunities that they bring.

dinosaur 3 cellos - how lovely... and heavy! I wouldn't worry about the Grade 4 if he's not quite there yet - he can always do it next time round. My 7 year old was all geared up to do Grade 2, but her teacher decided not to put her through it yet. They're still so little.

NeverEver 245min academic work a day, now that is what a real tiger mom does.

I have the beauty of both worlds even though none of my DCs are true genius (and I am not sure I would wish for one). DS quite academic (just had parents evening and he is on track of getting As and A*s in all his subjects at GCSEs) but never interested in musical instruments or art, or sports more than average. Tried football and piano, gave up, it isn't his thing. Now academically he just gets it. He doesn't work hard, doesn't put much effort (to my constant frustration) and God only knows when he completes his schools assignments.

DD on the other hand is musical, she can practice without problem for a long time, she gets it. Academically she is ok but to achieve she needs to work. She doesn't just "get it" she needs to practice maths and then practice that particular topic in real life. So if she learns fractions she'd have to apply the concept in real life to understand it. While funnily enough, she understands how many beats in a bar but even though we talked about it she doesn't see the connection of splitting the bar notes in fractions, quarter note, half note etc. Puzzling....

Interesting discussion. Just for the record, I'm amazed at just how many people on this thread have children who are achieving grades 5 and above at 8 / 9 / 10 years of age and who are practicing 40 minutes plus each day. My DS is working on lip stamina, but playing beyond 30 minutes on a trumpet at one go is physically beyond him (and he isn't a frail flower). For that matter, in his year group at school (Y5), I believe there are only one or two children out of 30+ who play an instrument / sing at or above G4 standard. By Y8, there are probably around 15 - 20 children playing at G5 or above - but remember that this includes 11 - 13 year olds. Since his school is private and probably close to half of all kids from Y3 onwards (so around 150 children) plays at least one instrument, it makes me believe that this thread is full of high achieving young musicians, rather than his school cohort itself under-achieves.

I also believe strongly in innate talent, but practice must play a big role too. The reality for Y5 kids at DS's school is that they have 8:20 - 5:30 days plus Saturday school, and they are also set around 30 minutes academic homework each evening. After 20 minutes trumpet practice and 10 minutes cello practice, plus his academic homework, my son has about an hour of "free time" each school night before bedtime at 8 pm. He chooses not to spend that hour on further music practice, and I can't really quibble. Equally, though his academics are average to good, he would have to work very hard to get into one of our local grammars. As Misti said earlier, only the cream of the British children (academically speaking) will gain a place in the grammar system. Is there a high correlation between academic and musical ability? I believe so, even if I don't have hard evidence at hand to prove it. Again, if you look back at this and previous Waffle threads, there are a number of children who are clearly very able musically and who either have gone on to grammar schools / believe they have a good shot at getting a grammar place / won scholarships / could pass the exam to grammars but the parents have decided that the local comp is a better choice for their DC and their families as a whole.

Just my tuppence worth!

Suspended

I believe that some children who are gifted or bright academically can become good at music, but I believe there are far fewer musically gifted who become good at academics.
At dd school there is a good mix of all abilities in the academic subjects from those who struggle to those who excel.
The range is far less for music though, they are all gifted.

I have just messaged mine as tonight she has a lighter night than usual so I'm reminding her to do her best at her prep, not to rush it but make sure she has time for a run or swim, as she likes this before bed.
They are long days, totally agree suspended

Dd school start morning practice at 8.00 and then academic subjects and music lessons throughout the day. They have 2 hours for lunch and are expected to watch or perform in concerts. Some have public attending, others are peer to peer observation concerts. Then another couple of academic lessons until 4.30
Then quick break and ensembles and or prep to 7.30 ish. tea is from 6 - 7pm, so they fit this around what they are doing. Sometimes evening is just prep and evening practice, so it varies.
Then usually time for a quick run, swim, hang out with friends before lights out, which is 8.45 for dd age.

I would agree with suspended that this thread is disproportionately skewed to include higher musical achievers, in addition to all the great support on offer for all. My DD's junior had an exceptional music department with many instruments on offer from Y3. The majority would have achieved G4 or below by end of Y6, with a handful being higher in their respective instrument, often supported by a musical parent at home.

The practice levels can change so much once a child hits secondary, unless music is truly their one passion. My lesson learned is to ensure DD really knows the difference between quantity and quality to maximise her output. I'm trying to teach her to stop being so time obsessed when she does get practice time, as she conveniently forgets she no longer doing this daily like in junior days before/after school!

Suspended my DD1 didn't even start trumpet playing till she was 10. Even now at aged 15 her practice is about 10 minutes if she is not at band rehearsal. Her teacher punctuates the lesson with lots of nonsense breaks to cope with stamina management. Our family joke is that she doesn't do anything unless it is punctuated by a 16 bar rest either side.

The thing that leaps out at me from your post is the length of time your DC are in school. We live opposite the school so mine leave home at 8.45 and are home by 3.30 on average. Homework is about half an hour a week. That leaves a lot more down time.

ealing

The primary that dd attended until H.ed didn't value music at all and all that was on offer were the ensembles run by the music service, outside school.
It was rare for any to play instruments apart from the whole class in y6 where they played a brass instrument of very little choice.
There were a couple of dc who had piano lessons outside school but that was all.
Most of the schools in the county were like this, except for a few exceptions where music was encouraged. Even then there were few primary schools, mainly secondary.
We had to H.ed to support the needs of dd, school just didn't recognise music as being important.
It got to the point where it interfered with travelling for work so she asked to leave at the end of y3.
My point that even an average ability musical child gets very little support and encouragement in our area.
A few get through and audition for dd school.

DD3 is off sick from nursery. Now she is on the mend she is learning to read the music to play her xylophone. I don't know what I think about innate musical talent but being brought up around her 2 sisters' practice has definitely had an impact. Reading the music for her involves her counting the notes and reading the letters and now she is also matching the song words so working on her reading too. It is very difficult not to hothouse a receptive DC if all the resources are lying around at her disposal.

I know newlife, I am from an area as regional as you originally (but not as far north), but my experience was the same at school, and by all accounts, those with next generation children from my home area are experiencing the same as you have.

I live in an area now where the music provision in most state and private schools is high, with many opportunities for them to extend into orchestral/ensemble groups.

I think that's what makes your story for all that follow it more appealing, as we are all rooting for your DD to succeed, given the passion and dedication she has shown to date to achieve her goals!

(no grammar schools here so can't comment on the 11+ challenges)!

No grammar schools in our area either but very good state schools. Provision of music in our primary school is seriously patchy, but the secondary school is very good. But we do our own thing. I would have been quite happy for DS1 not to do any music in school if he didn't want to but it turned out he's quite happy to take on more stuff...

Isn't it all relative.
Fleurdelise: 15 to 25 min a day would mean a lot of work in my eyes, as mine would do this in 1 week, not a day. And not at the expense of "fun" activities. . just in the car as they wouldn't do much else.
But then if my dc would practice 15 to 20 min of music a day I would consider that a lot....(Which they will do for a few days when I have shown them the letter that I will send to their teachers if they DON'T practise more....).

Funny also , in our (small) primary school grade 3 in year 6 is the highest anyone has achieved in the last 10 years (well didn't have a child in the school before 10 years). But as obvious from this thread this is absoluut nothing compared to many others.

exam

I am trying the teacher approach with dd and academic work, after trying everything else in support of the school.
I have asked her how it must feel to be a teacher at her school knowing full well that the students don't really want to do their subject. How it must feel to put in all that effort to be rewarded with dd attitude.
She doesn't even get in trouble now as I don't think the head has time for all her detentions.

You could ask how their teacher feels having to go over the same thing or something of the same level as they can't move on until they have mastered this weeks lesson.
It may work

Newlife4me: Hm, that may work for academic stuff, but the music teachers would presume that they like playing as otherwise they wouln't bother with lessons??? Or that they are doing their best but that they are just not very good at playing music???

At dd school there is a good mix of all abilities in the academic subjects from those who struggle to those who excel. The range is far less for music though, they are all gifted.

This is what you'd expect from selection by musical aptitude rather than by exam passes. It's not at all the same population as the group taking grade 8 before the end of primary. Btw NewLife my DD was also assessed for ADHD in her second year at primary school, since puberty she has calmed down a lot. She is bright, but still quite impulsive and not especially studious. In some ways the impulsivity is what makes her a good composer - she can get the music out before her inner critic gets the chance to reign in her creativity.

Ha Ha, just thought it worth a try.
My dh used to teach in schools many moons ago and stated this his biggest frustration.
He always said they could do it if they just did that extra bit of practice every week.

The highest achievers in our very ordinary village school will get Grade 3, or occasionally 4 by the time they leave... and then there is Goo! I don't really know how much she practises, but I am going to log it for a week to find out (without her knowing!). I think I will be pleasantly surprised... but I also reckon she doesn't do as much as most people think. She leaves for school at 8.40, and after activities, usually gets in at 4.30. She had Athletics club at school this afternoon, and is now playing on the Wii!

misti

Wow, they sound similar.
My dd doesn't get that her teachers are authority, she sees them as her peers or people there to help her.
It has been such a struggle but now school realise that it's the way she is and she isn't being disrespectful or nasty, they are making more allowances until assessment is complete.
This has removed a lot of anxiety and I think they can narrow their list of problems for assessment, now much of the anxiety has gone. For want of a better terminology.

My Dd's school doesn't actively encourages music. They have the school choir and year 6 plays a brass instrument but nothing in between. In Dd's class there are 4 DCs playing an instrument having private lesson. They used to put up a concert for the kids to perform with the school choir and also perform the instrument they are privately learning but this year they didn't, I don't know why.

One of the DCs in Dd's class started piano lessons privately when I asked why music isn't encouraged in a group curriculum meeting. The head teacher was a bit puzzled and stated that she doesn't want the DCs to lose on academic work while are being taken out for music lessons.

Incidentally I went on the website of the best state school in our area (ofsted 1, high academic achievers) to check what music provision they had. They were offering instrument lessons in around 6 instruments starting with year 1. Is this a connection between academic achievement and music lessons? Maybe, it is a big coincidence if not.

Incidentally I went on the website of the best state school in our area (ofsted 1, high academic achievers) to check what music provision they had. They were offering instrument lessons in around 6 instruments starting with year 1. Is this a connection between academic achievement and music lessons?

I imagine it's mainly a correlation between drawing from a middle-class high-achieving catchment, and having a cohort of parents who are prepared to pay for and support musical activities. And it's probably easier for a school to devote time to music if they don't have to worry about OFSTED.

There is almost no music in our local secondary (where DD used to go), but there is a network of subsidised municipal music schools here which make music lessons - mostly wind/brass - comparatively accessible. There isn't quite the same link between socioeconomic status and musical studies as there is in the UK.

At her current school there is no music department but the lycee organises some musical activities with the town council. The town fancies itself as having a musical history (it's the birthplace of Fauré) and has an active cultural department that does quite a lot to help young musicians (DD actually has a meeting with the cultural director tomorrow).

We are in an area where music is highly valued and the provision on offer both privately and by the music service, JD and our 'local' orchestra is so fantastic that a many talented children decide not to go specialist music school. It is usual in dd's school for children to have one or two g8s by end of yr 6. But I agree that is not 'normal'.

DD will 'practice' from zero to two hours a day depending on mood- but v little of it is 'good' practice, it is more playing her latest pieces of interest. She would be amazing if she really did practice that much! Homework tends to be up to an hour a day incl the weekend. Very little downtime left.